0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. On today’s show, we’re talking about ethical leadership. According to an article and abstract by Springer Nature, although leadership studies have highlighted the importance of ethical conduct, scholarship on this topic has generally treated ethical leadership in a decontextualized, individual, and isolated manner. The purpose of this article is to review the literature to develop an integrative framework that conceptualizes ethical leadership as a dynamic process wherein individuals’ traits of leaders, organizational context and systematic practices are mutually reinforcing and evolving. Much more coming up on today’s show. Stay with us.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about ethical leadership, and joining us is National University’s Assistant Professor of Marketing, Dr. Douglas Franklin. Dr. Franklin currently teaches marketing courses to undergraduate, master’s and doctoral students. His research interests include influencer marketing, diversity, equity and inclusion, and ethical leadership. He’s also the co-founder of Deck Launch, an organization dedicated to helping startups validate business ideas through the development of pitch decks and other strategic materials. Dr. Franklin resides in Houston, Texas, and enjoys spending time with his son, writing, and mentoring students in his free time. And we welcome him to the podcast. Dr. Franklin, how are you?

0:02:02 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

I’m doing well. I’m doing well. How are you doing today?

0:02:04 – Kimberly King

I’m great, thank you. Why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s show?

0:02:12 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

Well, it’s quite simple. My mission is always about connecting the research world with practice. I love finding ways to not only teach my students the interesting nuances about business and what’s going on in the business world, but I also like teaching back to business the amazing things that are going on in the research part of academia and in some of the pedagogy as well. So, that’s really what I like doing, and currently I’m trying to get back into the lab when it comes to research. So I’m looking at with this being an ethical leadership podcast today, I’m looking at ethics with regards to influencers and I’m looking at ethical leaders again and some of the bright sides and the dark sides of it, and we’ll get into that a little bit later, I’m sure.

0:03:09 – Kimberly King

Interesting. You probably have a whole palette to choose from, between ethical and maybe not so ethical, but I’m interested in hearing more about it. And we are talking about ethical leadership. And so what is ethical leadership, doctor?

0:03:23 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So, ultimately, it’s this nature of leading with integrity and making sure that you are guiding your, your subordinates, into doing the right thing. It’s also treating people equitably and equally, and it also has to do with making sure that all the stakeholders are happy, but it’s really about setting that nature of a culture where ethical behavior is the most important thing, even over profit. So this is like a really important concept of really just focusing on people first and then getting into the other important things that entail business.

0:04:08 – Kimberly King

And so what the key qualities- what are they, of an ethical leader?

0:04:14 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So there’s like a handful of qualities that researchers have used. So some of the things that I look at are integrity, just being honest. Fairness is a really important piece, because fairness is perceived by people differently, and trying to really promote equity amongst employees and other stakeholders can be a task. Respect and responsibility, of course, so making sure that you’re accountable for your decisions and making sure that you’re respectful of everybody and their beliefs. The thing that I really found interesting in one of the research papers that I perused in looking at ethical leadership is the nature of courage, and so actually standing up for what’s right versus just laying down and adhering to something that may not necessarily be the right thing to do.

0:05:15 – Kimberly King

I like that and that’s something, you know, maybe we don’t always hear about, we don’t always discuss, but I think, coming through the times that we all came through with COVID and just you know, learning boundaries, but also courage. I love that you’ve included that. What makes it different from other leadership styles?

0:05:38 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So the number one leadership style, if we had to talk about things that are always discussed would be transformational leadership, which is a really important leadership style, because this is about changing the paradigms of the organization and making sure that we’re moving towards the future in the best way and making sure that employees are engaged in things of that nature that really do look at the well-being of employees, but in the well-being of the organization, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it has to be ethically done, and so that is what we’re really looking at when we look at ethical leadership is like.

Are we- Are we really reinforcing the roles and responsibilities and tasks, rules and regulations that make sure that everybody is treated fairly and equitably, and making sure that we are doing everything the right way, to the best of our abilities. And so that’s what differentiates things from transformational leadership. One of the interesting leadership qualities that we see, our leadership approaches that we see now, is also authentic leadership, which is internal. When we’re talking about how the person that is the leader is more transparent and honest, and that is also another interesting piece of leadership that we’re starting to see. Where we’ve basically delineated ethical leadership from authentic leadership, is that ethical leadership really talks about the nature of the enforcement of the rules and regulations that make things equal and equitable, so you can be an authentic leader and an ethical leader at the same time.

0:07:21 – Kimberly King

And you know, you bring that up about being transparent, and it seems like there was a period of time, especially when we were younger, where it was it just was. That’s just the way it was. But now I think that level of transparency is because people ask questions now and they’re like, but why? And so I think that kind of holds us all accountable. So what are some of the effects of ethical leadership?

0:07:48 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

Well, happy employees, happy stakeholders in general. I mean people just feel empowered when they are treated fairly and equitably, versus just being seen as a number. It also keeps people- even though we don’t like talking about the negative- it keeps the people that otherwise would do some of the less favorable things at work, the people who would be uncivil. It really does remove that part of their behavior out of the workplace. So some of the research that I’ve reviewed over the years really talks about how it pretty much wipes- ethical leadership can wipe out the bad because people are aware of the consequences, because they’re going to be forced, and it really helps support the good behavior because they know that that’s going to be rewarded. And so those two things making sure that we’re, you know, basically providing the right reactions based on the attribution of the actions of the employees is something that’s really important for us to do.

0:09:06- Kimberly King

And so can you give me some examples of people you’d consider ethical leaders?

0:09:18 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

Yes. So I’m an avid Apple user so I have to talk about Tim Cook, of course. SO Tim is very inclusive, he’s very clear on his state, on his uh, his stance on being inclusive and open and respectful of diverse communities. Um, he’s working in sustainability, to try to make sure that there’s zero footprint, uh, carbon footprint for his business, and you’ll see that basically, a lot is a recurring motif for some of the other leaders that I’m going to talk about. So, for example, we have Indra Nooyi, who’s the former PepsiCo CEO, and so it was a very lofty job anyway to be one of the very few female CEOs, but Indra was one of the- She actually won an award for ethics, for leadership ethics, and so, which was really cool in 2022, I believe. And one of the things that she was famous for was not only like, really getting into some of the sustainability things, but also building a lot of that that inclusionary work into organizations, into our organization, and then, the- the last person that uh that I I’d like to highlight is Satya Nadella from Microsoft. He was one of the most important uh. He’s also been working in sustainability. He’s actually really, he was one of the people who did some great things for his employees based on, just kind of some of the inclusive inclusivity initiatives that have gone on. I was. I was really happy to see some of the programming that he had for Afrotech that was here in Houston in the fall, and so some of that programming and really making sure that people feel that they are receiving equitable treatment goes a long way.

0:11:21 – Kimberly King

Interesting. I’m glad you had some examples for us to look into and research. And how can someone learn to become an ethical leader?

0:11:31 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

And so learning to be an ethical leader is something that’s where we’ll, I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit more about research, but we’re still learning on like the ways that the antecedents, if you will, about ethical leadership and what really builds ethical leaders. So I can speak from experience, from my managerial experience prior to my educational experience where I think a lot of ethical leadership- the learning comes from is just getting than experience.

So really getting into and understanding the workplace and the roles that each of these stakeholders play, allows you to understand how to treat people the way that they should be treated. So I always think about- It makes me think about where Kimberly, where you just talked about you know, normally it was because I said so it really makes me think about kids and you can’t treat in parenting, you can’t treat every kid the same, and so learning about each person in each group that you’re responsible for, I think is one of the most important things.

Being honest with yourself when faced with difficult decisions or things that may challenge your ethics, really looking into the mirror and being honest with yourself and being able to say this is the right thing or this is the wrong thing, regardless of the effects on me professionally, and having that courage to stand up, just in case there is some type of illegal implication for being a whistleblower or something of that nature, you have to make sure that you’re, you adhere to those, those moral, that moral fiber, and so really taking that being introspective and learning about yourself is really is important as well.

I don’t know how to build courage, but I think it just- I think it’s just something that is inherently learned as you continue to grow and get experience again, and continuing just to learn, just the the- There’s so much to learn when we’re in organizations, and so understanding the culture and finding a way, the way to affect the culture and to also uphold ethical culture, is something that is nuanced, and so it’s not- again, not just because I said so, not because the policy said so, but how we operate within the policies, practices that we have in organizations.

0:14:14 – Kimberly King

Excellent. I sometimes think, as you say, a lifelong learner, and sometimes we get kind of complacent if we’re in an area that we get comfortable. So I guess it’s almost being getting into that uncomfortable spot, because that’s what helps push us along a little bit. And saying yes, you know, and just learning as we go. So how can you put ethical leadership into practice?

0:14:39 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

It’s, it’s the- The first step is just following the rules. If they’re fair. So if, if we have good rules and we have fair rules, um, it is following them yourself and then it’s enforcing them, and so making sure that, for whatever reason, you just have to follow and require your employees to follow the same examples that you display. It’s a lot about being honest, again, so getting really just making sure that you’re honest in your communications and providing people with feedback.

So I’m, in my opinion, ethical leaders are good at the nature of communication just because they are able to clarify how the rules are to be followed if they’re openly communicating. And so another thing is just making sure that you’re fair, and so really looking at clearly the differences in rewards and punishments across your employees is also important. And then, finally, is really that reward system again, really getting into the reward system and making sure that you show recognition at the very least, for really for great behavior, and then really expressing the consequences of negative behavior as well.

0:16:09 – Kimberly King

Making it very clear where those boundaries are, I suppose. How did ethical leaders make difficult decisions with ethical implications?

0:16:20 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So this is probably the hardest question, because making ethical decisions is probably the hardest thing to do in organizations. There are so many things that pressure us in organizations to make sure that we are doing the right thing for the organization and not necessarily people, and so it’s always, in my opinion, taking a step back from the decision first and trying to figure out what’s right. And so there’s a couple of different. We get deep into ethical theory and we look at the approaches of it, will my decision help met the many or the individual? That’s something that we kind of get in, that you have to get into, but ultimately, the best, the best laid decisions we find are the ones that we are clear about, based on what the our rules tell us and what our moral compass tells us, and so basically trying to align those things allows you to make the best decision in difficult situations.

I think the biggest, scariest thing is like what happens if I have to be a whistleblower? And that’s one of the things that uh, being an ethical leader can be, can be scary for ethical leaders because ultimately, you’re driven to do the right thing. Ideally, for people who are going to do the right thing, we should be protected in organizations. So it takes a village of ethical leaders to make sure that everybody’s happy, safe and working well in organizations.

0:17:58 – Kimberly King

Safety in numbers. Do you have any advice on what to do if someone is behaving unethically at work?

0:18:06 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

Ao I do. So if I had to approach this- So, if it’s safe, it’s something that you need to address with your subordinate or, excuse me, that’s your subordinate, your leader first, or, excuse me, that you’re supporting your leader first. If it’s something that is immediate, like immediately affecting you, then that’s there. You obviously have to base, you have to say something for yourself, but a lot of it is really reporting to the, to your to your higher, to your um to your uh leaders.

A lot of what we think about this is that we are tattling, because we’re so used to and raised to not tell on people for certain things that we do, that a lot of the, a lot of things get swept under the table, specifically with behavior and necessary and adverse behavior in organizations, and so we see a lot of subtle negative behaviors and even more provocative negative behaviors being allowed in organizations, often just because people are too scared to tell or believe that no one is going to believe them.

And so, ultimately, it’s really hoping and really focusing on your leader being accountable for making sure that things do not occur and things can be stopped before there’s conflict or increased negative behaviors and from there, if your leader’s not necessarily receptive, then that’s when you use some of the other resources that are here for organizations, human resources going to- Sometimes there are anonymous hotlines that you can use to whistleblow. Things of that nature that are there for you in organizations that you can use for your personal safety but also to manage your personal health and also your ethical compass are all there. It’s just in how we use them.

0:20:15 – Kimberly King

I like that. I like that it would be confidential. You know there are outlets for that, so I think that’s a good and important part. What does recent research on ethical leadership tell us?

0:20:28 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So right now, we’re trying to figure out, like what really causes people to be ethical leaders. So we know that ethical leaders do really great things in organizations. We know that they’re very positive for organizations, but what we don’t necessarily know are some of the antecedents of ethical leadership behavior, and so we’re so a lot of- There’s a lot of research that is looking at that right now. And that’s what Banks et al. in Leadership Quarterly in 2022 is really starting to look at, and so that has pushed us into looking at the beginnings and foundations of ethical leadership.

Some of the other things were that are starting. We’re starting to run into basically how ethical leadership affects the relationship between people and their behavior. So an example is that I’ve been- My dissertation, for example, was on looking at how ethical leadership actually adversely well, actually reduced negative behavior for employees in the workforce, and that’s something from a scientific perspective that we’re starting to look at. That we know anecdotally, yeah, it works, but we’re looking at it also in research as well, and that’s an exciting place to be in for ethical leadership.

0:21:53 – Kimberly King

That’s great. It must be exciting to see that that’s been your focus. So do you have any upcoming research yourself on ethical leadership that you’d like to share?

0:22:04 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

So I’m actually working on a conference paper as we speak right now that looks at the dark side of ethical leadership, and so there’s another type of leader that we didn’t talk about today. It’s basically called a destructive leader, and ultimately, destructive leaders can inadvertently be negative to their employees, and so they don’t even know what they’re doing. So what we’re starting to work on is the nature of, in this research, is the nature of taking one for the team. We see it a lot in sports, where someone’s hurt and they still go out to play.

We do this at work. Sometimes you’re sick and your boss calls you in and should, should that happen? Not necessarily, but how they’re drawn in is based on the the things that they say to people to influence them, based on their ethical stances, and so if someone knows that I’m really worried about letting the team down and they know that I’ll come in sick, if they just say, hey, well, you, you know that you’re going to let everybody down and we need you out there, I’m probably going to come in sick. And those are some of the things we’re looking at. Is that, basically, you could leverage ethical leadership influence in a way where someone could get hurt more or get more sick, but they’ll come in because of just the sake of what they believe is doing the right thing, and so that’s really the direction that I’m starting to go with ethical leadership research when we get to the new year.

0:23:41 – Kimberly King

Right, like you’re almost taking advantage of a situation and using that ethical leadership as your key take. Does that matter with the size of the organization? Does it, you know, have an effect on ethical leadership?

0:23:56 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

I believe so. So I think a lot of what happens with the size of organizations is as organizations get bigger it’s more difficult to manage the people, and so I think about some of the experiences I have right now in entrepreneurship with smaller organizations, they really try to trim those people that are negative or unethical out as quickly as possible, but sometimes in larger organizations, what we see is that the culture is so old and almost unchanged that some of the negative behaviors that exist just have been there and people just deal with it. And so being able to cut out those negative behaviors with ethical leaders takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of alignment amongst leaders to make that change. And so those are the things that we see when we’re trying to make that ethical change in organizations, and ideally for the greater good.

0:25:00 – Kimberly King

Super interesting and I think it’s a really relevant time to be talking about this. So thank you for sharing your knowledge, doctor, and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It’s nu.edu, and we thank you so very much for your time.

0:25:17 – Doctor Douglas Franklin

Thank you for having me again.

0:25:21 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.