0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. On today’s show, we are talking about career pivoting and making changes after you’ve been in a career for a little bit of time and, according to an article a recent article in Forbes magazine most professionals misunderstand what a pivot truly means. It’s not merely jumping from one job to another, but it’s about pursuing new experiences, skills and perspectives that lead to a fundamentally changed career trajectory. And today we’re going to find out a lot more about career pivoting. Stay with us.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about navigating career pivots, and joining us is Dr. Jackie Kus. Jackie currently serves as National University’s Career Advisor, specializing in working with students and alumni in the School of Business and Economics and College of Law and Public Service. She’s spent nearly 20 years working in various administrative roles in higher education, with a focus on career-related work for the last 10 years. She completed her PhD in 2016 from Kent State University, with a focus in career counseling, and is an expert in career construction, counseling and life design dialogue. I love that, and she serves as a faculty member for the Career Construction Network and has worked with clients all over the world. Jackie is passionate about helping others across all stages of life navigate their career journey and partnering with students to align their work, personal lives, interests and values into meaningful careers, and we welcome Jackie to the podcast. Dr. Kus, how are you?

0:02:04 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I’m doing well. How are you doing?

0:02:05 – Kimberly King

Good. I love this, I love what you do, and I obviously know you’re so passionate about this. Why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s show topic?

0:02:18 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, so literally I am kind of a product of my own circumstances on why I landed where I landed. Very, you know, typical young person who had to fill a tall order of what do you want to do, what do you want to be when you grow up, and you know, at 18 to 22 years old made a decision to pursue kind of a career pathway in higher education but never really felt like satisfied and situated like this is like really meaningful, it makes sense. You know it’s such a tall ask at such a young age. And so I faced some of that career indecision.

I definitely changed careers multiple times, or even career pathways, multiple times when I was young, before I really settled into what it is I wanted to do, which led me to a PhD. Right? I didn’t want to see other people kind of struggling through the challenges that I was going through, making decisions about what it is I wanted to do, what did I want to be when I grew up? So really just wanting to kind of pay it forward, finding passion in helping others navigate their career landscape comfortably and confidently has brought me to this work.

0:03:22 – Kimberly King

Wow, the timing is perfect. I’ll have to tell you a story a little bit when we get into this, your interview- about what my daughter is going through right now. So this is I can’t wait to share this podcast with her. Excellent, yay. So today we’re talking about navigating career pivots. And so, really, what is a career pivot?

0:03:41 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah. So a career pivot is really when you’re looking to like shift into a new position, a new role or even potentially a new industry, but you’re really leveraging the skills and experiences and talents that you already kind of have in your repertoire, those transferable components of your experiences. You know, completely different from a career change where you would need to go into a completely new industry, maybe get a whole new degree or a whole new education, learn a whole new skill set to advance in that particular role. A career pivot is a little bit of a softer transition into a new opportunity.

0:04:17 – Kimberly King

And you know what, and it seems like I don’t know, maybe you know better, but with COVID and we’ve all kind of had to do lots of flexibility changing, and so I guess, how does a career pivot differ from a career change?

0:04:31 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Right. So to expand on that, that career change would be someone like me, for example, working 20 years in higher education and then deciding at this phase of life – hey, I want to go become a medical doctor. That is a whole different career path to start over again, essentially because that is a whole new set of education, technical skills, knowledge, you know, even hands-on experience would completely differ from what I come to the table with. You know, I may have some understanding and some minor transferable skills that would roll into that new profession or that new industry well. But it really is starting from ground zero and going into this brand new field of work – being the career change.

Something a little more digestible, maybe on the career pivot side, would be taking all of my experience in higher education and maybe moving that over into, like a business sector. Right? I’ve got exceptional people, skills, able to talk, I’ve got negotiation under my belt, supervision exists under my belt, you know writing documents, giving reports, strategic planning – all that aligns really well into business. So maybe I take what I know now and maybe I’m looking to move into a business sector where I become a small business owner, and I’m really looking to just have to advance some skills in the business world by you know, taking a couple classes around business or finance, budgeting, things of that nature.

0:05:49 – Kimberly King

And you know what kind of what I’m finding out is that we don’t always take good inventory for ourselves where, like you just mentioned, you know good people skills- but people just kind of sail through, get to that next point. But it’s- I think it’s always really good to make sure that, oh, this is going to look good on a resume or this will look good on the next time around, and we don’t know what we don’t know. But when you’re in there and you hear it, you’re like, oh yeah, this I’m also good at this. So I think that, doing that inventory. Can you share an example of a successful career pivot?

0:06:56 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah. I’ll kind of talk a little bit about myself if that’s okay. Because it’s just a really unique example, but it’s a nice demonstration of kind of a career pivot. So, when I was in more the student affairs side of higher education, I was very much on a trajectory into upper management, in the leadership roles. Started off more in entry level roles, moved into assistant director, to director role, then into dean of students role, in succession, for a vice presidency. That was really my career pathway.

While I was, you know, following this kind of career ladder, climbing, climbing, climbing, I was also pursuing a PhD, and really like exploring my knowledge and where I might be able to utilize my passion for career work more intentionally, and so decided to look towards moving more into career work full time. So stepping away from the corporate ladder that I was climbing into a role that was going to essentially give me more satisfaction, and so my PhD was a great first step, right?

Advancing that education, getting that knowledge. I needed a place to employ some of those skills, which I was doing with the Career Construction Institute, so that was good. But then also I was working with a startup and we were building product, and I was doing career work with clients all over the world and with that startup really helped me develop those skillsets that allowed me to fully transition away from kind of the corporate position, climb down the ladder a little bit, and situate myself in a position that gives me great satisfaction day to day in the role that I do.

0:07:50 – Kimberly King

Wow, and that’s – and I think that’s great. Again, you’re realizing OK, I’m going up the ladder, this is a whole different shift, and you are a people person. I can see that already. So sometimes when you get, when you keep climbing the ladder, you’re not on the people level so much anymore. You’re up in corporate and admin. So why do you think more people are considering career changes right now?

0:08:15 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know, it’s really interesting and there could be a number of reasons why. I really think that when COVID-19 happened, when the pandemic happened, we really saw this re-evaluation of what people wanted and needed in the workplace. Right? People were sent home or working from home realizing that, oh, the work that I’ve been doing all of these years, or all of these decades, you know, in a location on property was able to be successfully done in the comforts of my home. And that made sense for some people. It made sense for, you know, those with families and whatnot, and so it just it really forced people to reevaluate kind of their career. Is this the employer I want to work for? Is this the work I really want to do?

And truly, how employers reacted right, responded to what happened in the pandemic also created some, I think, foundations for people making decisions about their life. Right. Did they feel valued, did they feel taken care of? So people started to put more priority around what they want and what they expect and what they need from an employer. It was no longer like I’m just going to do whatever you say because of loyalty. I now realize that my own personal needs and how I’m valued and how I’m treated and what is important to me in the work environment, in employment, in a career, is now on the forefront of the docket. In addition, there’s been like dramatic changes with the job markets, the ways in which companies have pivoted and allowed workers to stay remote. So people, I think, have just been opened to new opportunities and experiences in the world of work.

0:09:54 – Kimberly King

And that was kind of where I was going with my next question. What are some common reasons people do cite this for wanting to change careers?

0:10:02 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

No, absolutely. It could be a slew of things right? Higher pay, potentially better work-life balance, overarching job satisfaction, finding meaning in the work that they’re doing. You know, really realizing I don’t want a job, I really want a career, something that I look forward to going to every day, knowing that I’m making a difference and that I’m being valued, respected and appreciated in my work. Career advancement opportunities. You know, what else is out there, when else can I go? And then also people really just vacating, toxic work environments, which I think all came to light as the response to the pandemic.

0:10:35 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I totally agree. And I guess the job market- How has that influenced this trend?

0:10:41 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Well, that’s also seen significant shifts, right? Like the greater demand for remote work, because again, we’ve realized companies have realized we can employ this work from home strategy, and it works for our customer base or our client base, and our employees are satisfied. We can make this shift happen. We can make this work. Sectors realizing that, oh, I could potentially go work in this particular field and make more money. And then again, like going back to people just really wanting that work-life balance component and that being an important priority for people. So it’s really just made it more feasible for people to want to explore career pathways.

0:11:19 – Kimberly King

And so is there an optimal time to consider changing careers?

0:11:23 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I wouldn’t say that there’s a one-size-fits-all, because there’s a lot of factors that go in when you think about changing a career, right? For example, is there financial stability right? You could be stepping out of a role that you’re paid well in and knowing that, hey, to make this change I might have to accept a pay cut. Can I financially make this happen? But common signs when people really look to consider changing careers is, you know, feeling unfulfilled, that you know they’re not having an impact in their work, or maybe it’s mundane or monotonous and that’s just not satisfying for them anymore. Lack of growth opportunities. If they’re experiencing burnout, which we saw a lot of, or when it no longer aligns with your personal values, that’s when we really start to- those tend to be good times when people consider changing careers, at that point.

0:12:12 – Kimberly King

Yeah, and it’s so true. I mean my brother-in-law, who served, I think, about 16 years in the Marine Corps, he went to three tours overseas, and he’s now just finished medical school and he is in residency to become an anesthesiologist, and I’m like that’s a crazy career change. But he’s 44 years old and I’m like, wow, and it hasn’t been easy, but he’s such an inspiration to all of us and to my kids as well, and I’m like man, if he can do it. And you know there’s a little PTSD in there, but I mean he’s all in.

0:12:52 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know, there’s no age. I tell people all the time, if you look to change careers or pivot into a new career, your previous career is always going to be there. So like, dip your toe in the water, try something new, but you don’t know what you don’t know. So if you don’t explore it, you’re just going to stay stuck right? If you look in this new professional area, this new industry, you still have all this experience to fall back on. You can always go back. So there’s not necessarily like an age that says, oh, you’ve been in this job for 30 years, why are you changing now? Absolutely not. There’s never a bad time to consider making the decisions that are going to be best for you in your life.

0:13:33 – Kimberly King

That’s the- I love that. Yeah, there is no right or wrong, there’s no age. So are there specific signs that indicate it’s time for a career change? You just kind of talked a little bit about that. But what are the signs? But what are your thoughts?

0:13:45 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, I mean that persistent unhappiness. I work a lot with clients about finding happiness in the work that you do. People will accept lower pay to be in a role that they feel fulfilled in, happy- that they’re supported, respected, that they’re feeling valued, that their work matters.

So I think if you have those signs of, like, persistent unhappiness, just unrest, you’d read that Monday 8 am, like that just rolls around and it’s the worst part of your week. I mean that’s a sign that’s telling you something, right. Or you know, being stuck, no opportunities for growth, no place to go. I mean what an awful feeling, to be in your job all the time and knowing that there’s no other place for you to go or grow or learn more or challenge yourself.

If it doesn’t align with your personal values. Doing work that doesn’t align with your values can be so dissatisfying but so challenging to do, right. If you’re doing work that you just really don’t feel like it aligns with you and what’s important to you and is within your values, that’s a miserable place to be and people end up there, and they stay there. Could be stress and burnout right, or even just again like that lack of passion for your work. Like I said, I work a lot with people and helping them get to a place where they have like meaning, meaning in the world of work, really finding that career and moving away from it just being a job where you’re punching in and punching out and doing the paper pushing or whatever it may be, but getting yourself into the career that like fuels your soul, feel good about it when you come home at the end of the day you’re not ready just to crash, burn. You know you’re ready to come home and continue to be a happy, livable person.

0:15:21 – Kimberly King

Yeah, right, right. But I think it’s so important too, like you said, making a difference, feeling like you are adding. You know a member of society that’s doing something. How can one assess their readiness for a career pivot?

0:15:37 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I think a great first step is reflecting on what skills you currently have and we talked about that earlier. You even mentioned it. Knowing what is in your repertoire, what’s in your skill set, is a really great first step. Knowing what your interests are- I talk all the time like things you could be good at is one thing, but are you actually interested in doing that? So knowing what your interest areas are, and then also what your values are. And I think once we have cohesion in that you know skills, interests, and values, when those things align, you land yourself in a really satisfying career opportunity.

I also tell people consider your motivations. What’s motivating you? What’s driving this change? What’s going on in your current world? What’s going on in your current role? What’s kind of the pushing, motivating factors getting you to where you want to be?

But self-assessment tools- they’re out there, they exist. You can certainly leverage those. But also leaning into a support network like a career counselor can be also a great tool to take advantage of when you’re looking at readiness, having someone who can hear what you’re saying and relay that information back to you when you’re not hearing it for yourself. So I hear people all the time will tell me you know their skill set and, as we’re just talking, getting to know one another, I’m hearing so much more come out of them and I’m able to re-deliver that back to them. Stuff that they’ve already shared because they’re the experts in their own experiences and I can re-deliver that back in a way that makes sense to them and then they feel just so much more confident. Oh, I do have that skill. Oh, you’re right, I do have that skill. I wasn’t even thinking there, and that’s what a good career counselor can do for you.

0:17:10 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love it, it’s so inspiring. And again, so I remember being in high school and they had pamphlets and do you remember this? But then you know, you would kind of circle what you think you’re good at, what your passions are, and it usually just ended up with two or maybe three pamphlets and you’re like, okay, I guess that’s what I’m doing, but you know, thank goodness we have, you know, the World Wide Web now. Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Right, you can just see yourself in different roles and yeah, we’ve come so far. So what are some key factors that we should consider when contemplating a career pivot?

0:17:47 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I think, really assessing where you’re at in your own personal situation. Usually those are the driving factors behind why someone’s really interested in those career pivots. Assessing kind of the risk. I tell people all the time to do that risk and reward and look at your return on investment, you know. If it is in fact going to be pursuing four more years of education, that’s not necessarily a terrible thing. But we have to be prepared with an action plan, and be able to sit down and talk through the phases and the steps of what does that actually look like? And what kind of impact is that going to have? Am I prepared for that, financially, emotionally, mentally, physically – my family, you know those factors are all important.

What does additional training look like? Is that feasible, is it digestible, is it doable? But also again, like reevaluating what you’re already coming to the table with and having a really good foundation. An understanding of that can be a great starting point and it makes all those other pieces easy to work with.

0:18:49 – Kimberly King

So how important is financial stability during a career pivot? I’m sure you get asked that all the time.

0:18:53 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I do, and it’s super important for people to consider and just think about. Again, you moving into a new field, sure, could offer some opportunity for great financial gain. Right, you look at a career pathway, and you may see an average salary or kind of the higher end, when you move into the more executive roles of a particular industry. But that field may require you have three years of experience and this particular degree, or this particular certification and training, and so you have to factor all that in. So having a good understanding of your financial landscape currently and what is it going to look like on a timeline, making sure that you set yourself up for potentially taking a pay cut to get you to eventually where you want to go. So that action plan, but also staying goal-oriented so important but also it sits with that financial piece, right. That- can we reduce here to make this work, because the end goal is this, and recognizing those components.

0:19:54 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that’s all- I was mentioned in the beginning that my daughter just decided- she was a criminal justice major back east. She’s home now here in San Diego and she was going to become a law enforcement deputy with the sheriff’s office, and she just had a change of heart. It’s a big, that’s a big ask. You know she’s 23. And so it’s not sitting well necessarily with your old dad, but she’s still working. She’s an intel analyst and so she loves those skills. She’s doing great, and I’m not sure if it’s just something she’s just having second thoughts about because it is a big career. But anyway, we’re exactly in this role right now where there’s financial and all of that but passion, and I think she’s second guessing herself a lot too.

0:20:40 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know I think you speak to it too just in that example, how important flexibility and adaptability also needs to exist in your plan. So, even if the end goal may be this, it’s so interesting because I talk a lot about the journey too. The journey to getting where you want to go may open up new doors, new opportunities, things that you never considered. And it’s just so interesting because I tell people your career journey doesn’t ever have to be straight up and down. I mean, it’s literally can be topsy-turvy and it’s just fluid. That’s why they say I tell people all the time it’s a journey. You just need to recognize it’s a journey and as long as you’re happy, that’s important.

0:21:17 – Kimberly King

Well I love that. Right? And I think, yeah, that has to play into everything. Just for- yeah, for our good right. So you just talked about it. What role does personal passion play in making this career pivot?

0:21:30 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know, I think it’s a significant driver for a lot of people, and if it’s not, it really should be, because when you’re passionate about what you do, it no longer becomes a job and it really becomes that career and ultimately leads to, you know, greater job satisfaction. You’re more motivated, right? If you’re passionate about what you do, if there’s purpose there, you just you feel more motivated to really involve and engage yourself and go the distance for the work that you’re doing, because it doesn’t feel like work, right? If you love what you do, you’ll never work a day in your life. And I know that’s like a niche statement to say, but it’s true, yeah, you know. But passion also makes that transition more, you know, fulfilling and potentially smoother. If you know that, even if I don’t land up here where maybe the end goal is, I’m still finding myself in areas that I’m passionate about, and so it just becomes a fulfilling journey.

0:22:21 – Kimberly King

Right and I think, yeah, maybe back in the day our grandparents maybe didn’t always follow the passion side, it was more like had to kind of thing. But boy, what a difference it does make. So what do you see as the key drivers for these, for the people that are considering a career change?

0:22:41 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Key drivers, I would say, are you know, job satisfaction, having you know challenges, opportunities to learn, personal growth, maybe the opportunity to even leverage skills in ways you hadn’t before. So if you have skills maybe that are more dormant because they’re just not exercised in the work that you’re doing, being able to do that in a new environment or a new opportunity can be really invigorating.

0:23:06 – Kimberly King

Yeah. And what about personal values influencing the decision to change careers?

0:23:12 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, your personal values truly can be the front runner for, you know, deciding to change careers and recognizing those pieces, because it just provides that foundation for fulfillment, right? If something’s important to you, and I can say this about facet of life, if something’s really important to you, you know, you’ll make the concessions, and you won’t feel as run thin, or worn down, because it’s very much in alignment with what’s important to you.

0:23:50 – Kimberly King

And then what about the external factors then that often drive people to pivot their careers?

0:23:52 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Hmm, yeah, the external factors could be family, it could be financial, it could be the work environment, it could be those opportunities for growth, opportunities for more money. You know, those are all -in my opinion- you know, really important to consider.

0:24:15 – Kimberly King

I know with my daughter, a lot of men would say, are you sure you want to do that? You know and they, and so that kind of was an outside factor for her too, unfortunately. But anyway, that’s a whole other story.

0:24:26 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Even, too, you’re seeing it with like the changes in technology. It’s also like an external factor that I’m seeing push people or move people or inspire people to go in different directions. People who have had 20 and 25, 30 year careers who are now really exploring kind of the machine learning side of things because of the advancements in AI and just the- It’s so interesting and it’s so fascinating and it’s so new. So we start to see-

0:24:49 – Kimberly King

Yeah, like a whole new world opening up here. So what are some benefits of career pivoting?

0:25:00 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Really the benefits of career pivoting is the ultimate goal of getting people into the positions that are going to be the most fulfilling, and the most satisfying, and deliver kind of the meaning to what it is that you’re doing. And so really, when you’re looking at the pivoting, getting yourself into a position where the work matters- your work, your contributions to the work, whatever industry that is- that it matters, it matters to you or it matters on a greater societal stage, but there’s a difference that’s being made either personally or within a collective.

0:25:42 – Kimberly King

Yeah, yeah, and so it goes along with everything you’ve also been saying is. And how can a career pivot lead to personal growth? Like maybe like finding out things you didn’t even know about yourself, or being flexible?

0:25:56 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Absolutely. Whenever you do something new, there’s always an opportunity to look at your level of resiliency, your perseverance, your flexibility, your adaptability. But truly, people enjoy learning new things, and that could be- you see it in all sorts of facets, right, the content that people consume on social forums- a lot of it is educational.

I mean, my husband jokes a lot about YouTube University but- and I actually had to employ that when he was doing storm relief for the hurricanes, he’s a lineman I had to change a faucet out for the sink, and I had no clue. I’ve never done it before, and so you know, picking up YouTube to how to change a sink, turn off the water, change a sink and do all these things- so out of my comfort zone. But I felt so energized by that opportunity because I learned something about the process that I never knew, but also about me. Like I can do this, I can do new things, I can do things that I thought were hard. You know, and I think you find a sense of confidence in yourself and you know, you learn to trust yourself and your ability to read something or hear something, or watch something and do something.

0:27:08 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love that. I was just telling my husband I’m like I would love to take a woodworking class and you know either putting furniture together or building furniture, so I think that’s- good for you. You have mad skills now. What long-term advantages can come from changing careers?

0:27:29 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Well, aside from potential financial, it could be moving into a space that you are now maybe dually qualified. So when you look at, you’ve got this career path that maybe you were on. So you have all this knowledge, this experience, maybe these technical skills, and then you move into this new particular arena and I think your sense of confidence in general, but your knowledge, the expansion of knowledge and understanding, I think it really just shows that we as people truly are limitless in what it is we can do and want to learn, as long as we take the steps right. Step out of our comfort zones and do the things.

0:28:13 – Kimberly King

Yeah yeah, and your sink hasn’t acted up ever since you learned how to paint your sink.

0:28:18 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

No, he was so proud. He’d be at home, and he’s like you did the hot water to the right one? I was like I did. You can check the whole thing. It looks good. It’s like a plumber came in here, so impressed.

0:28:35 – Kimberly King

I’m so impressed with you. I think that’s awesome. That should be your headline or at least the title of your book. I can do this, right?

0:28:38 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

We can do hard things.

0:28:39 – Kimberly King

Great, great, exactly. So what are the biggest challenges to consider and how can they be overcome when it comes to career pivoting?

0:28:49 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh goodness, challenges, yeah. I would say, not- taking that first step right, being paralyzed by your own fears of the unknown-

0:28:58 – Kimberly King

Not talking yourself out of things right-

0:29:00 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s why, again, I encourage people- you can always come back. You’re not losing all this experience. You’re not losing that past degree you got. It’s still there. It’s still there.

If you decide that you have this degree in business and then you decide I want to go try cybersecurity, and that’s kind of the avenue I really want to go into, guess what? All this knowledge from business isn’t going anywhere. If nothing, it’s just going to be utilized. But that networking can be a great way to overcome challenges that you face. Leaning into people in different industries to get some confidence and comfort, and potentially, you know, explaining out that unknown piece. Building relationships with other professionals in your area that you’re looking to move into can also, you know, give some insights that maybe you hadn’t known or considerations that you hadn’t thought of. Finding you know opportunities where you can exercise your flexibility and you can exercise that adaptability.

0:30:05 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that’s all so true. So some of the common fears associated with career pivoting and I know we talked a little bit about that just now, even just talking ourselves out of things, but financial as well. Anything else stand out?

 0:30:15 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I would say, not feeling supported. It’s also- it helps people a lot too. You know, if you’re considering making a change, lean into the people who are closest to you and garner their opinions. Getting their support can be such a positive reinforcement to what it is you’re doing and so garnering them, explaining things to them, helping them understand so they can be a support piece, and really silencing the noise of people who aren’t supportive, and not allowing that to be a potential barrier for you.

0:30:45 – Kimberly King

That’s a good point. Yeah, that’s why I’m going to have my daughter listen to this afterwards.

0:31:50 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh, excellent, that’s excellent.

0:30:51 – Kimberly King

Yeah, how can we build resilience, then, during this career transition?

0:31:15 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I think building resilience really- I would say is, you know, remembering and jotting down, like being very strategic on what it is you do come to the table with. And not forgetting those pieces right, even if you’re unsure or uncertain, just making sure that you have a good understanding of what you do come to the table with.

Having good coping strategies taking care of yourself, you know, employing mindfulness practices, seeking mentorship, setting achievable goals, maintaining a current healthy work-life balance, as you’re considering right, because that could be stressful. You may be working in an environment that you’re still not quite sure, and so taking care of yourself there while you’re, you know, making these different considerations or plans or you know, what the next step might be. Just making sure you’re taking care of yourself. And again, I would say, leveraging a career counselor would also be a great space to use.

0:32:04 – Kimberly King

Yeah, but I think you’re right to that career-life balance. But taking care of ourselves, I mean- it’s hard to just focus, yeah, just getting ourselves right in the head, in our bodies, what we’re eating, all of that. What strategies can help in overcoming setbacks?

0:32:22 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Having a plan, knowing that that plan is fluid and that it can change, and that change isn’t bad, it’s just, it is what it is. It’s change. And whatever change or setback comes, we are going to strategize and make a plan and recognize and name that you know setback. Lean into the strengths that we do have. Knowing that- I say this all the time too a lot of people, when you talk about success rate of overcoming challenges, a lot of people are sitting pretty close to 100%. They will get through it. And I think even that personal, just affirmation to yourself that I’ve done hard things, I’ve overcome hard things, I’ve seen setbacks and I’ve made it through, and that I can do hard things and I can get through hard things, can often be helpful as well. And again, leaning into you don’t know what you don’t know, but never walking too far away from what you do.

0:33:10 – Kimberly King

Yeah, yeah, and just as you said earlier, having that good support around you and I’m in a new career as of six months ago and I love it. Super challenging, but I had- it wasn’t a setback, but I just had a little bleep happen today and I’m like uh-oh and so just talking to the boss and just making me feel like, okay, tomorrow’s another day, so it’s good when you have that, you know that I guess, yeah, respect from within, but also the support. Can you provide some examples of effective coping strategies for career setbacks?

0:33:54 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah- Having a plan. So sitting down and taking time to write things out, even pre-planning. Some people who maybe have a real, significant fear of the unknown, even taking steps in terms of pre-planning. Like, if this doesn’t happen this way, based on my plan, what does it look like to make a change? How do I adapt? Look at the learning opportunities that come from these and make sure you’re taking stock of that. What okay, what can I learn from this that just happened? And writing that down and taking and moving that forward and advancing that can be really helpful. Gaining advice from other people is another thing that you can do. Hey, I’ve hit this wall. You know, garnering support, hearing from others who maybe have faced a similar challenge, can offer their perspective or maybe what they did. Making sure you’re taking care of yourself mentally, physically, you know, in all ways, so that way you’re able to overcome the challenge, the setback, you know, the fear. It makes it easier when you’re in a good, a good headspace.

0:35:05 – Kimberly King

And and you just talked about that about like even relationships, so that the- I don’t know, I guess, the art of networking and talking about what, those career challenges and finding out what maybe they have done, or just networking and talking about it.

0:35:18 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

0:35:22 – Kimberly King

What steps should we take at the start of a career change? You mentioned something which I love, by the way, and that is writing things down, because sometimes you’re thinking it, you’re going through it, but then when you just see it in black and white, or whether you type it out or write it out, I think I’m a visual person, so I think for me it’s like oh, there’s my map, right here.

0:35:41 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

It’s so important, and with career work in general, writing things down can be such a value add. So even if you look at the most fundamental parts of career work, when you look at, say, resume writing, you remind people, hey, you might not remember what you did six to eight months ago. So keeping just a general log, getting in the habit of documentation of things, can be really useful, especially when you sit down six months from now. Maybe that’s when the pivot you know is looking to be good timing. You’re not trying to recall and backpedal and find this information out because you’ve done your due diligence and, hey, I did this project. Or, oh my gosh, we had a great metric here- I increased productivity by 50%. I’m going to write that down because this is a huge accomplishment. We forget these little things. So I would say assessing your skills and interests, writing those down, keeping stock of those. You can do that. I mean simple places. You could do that in LinkedIn. You can start calculating or documenting your skill set so you can always refer back to something like that if writing pen and paper isn’t your thing. That exists. Researching career pathways, having some foundational knowledge- and research doesn’t necessarily mean going out and just searching jobs or having an idea, but talking to people who are in the field and in the industry, doing some informational interviewing and get to know what actually happens in those particular career paths, not just what I see, maybe on TV.

If I’m interested in doing forensics, is it really CSI or is it something a little bit different? And how can I educate and inform myself about that? So I have a good idea. Setting clear goals, right. Having a clear goal or clear goals in your process, I think also helps make it digestible. The mentorship. And then filling in gaps, right. So as you start to explore things filling in gaps, maybe where you’re a little bit skill deficient, uh, get that learning early. Um, start cultivating those pieces can also really help define is this an interest area early, before making a huge decision or any decision.

0:37:47 – Kimberly King

And I guess you really did kind of just talked about creating that solid action plan for a career pivot, you know. I like writing it down, keeping track, and that’s one thing like we talked about in the very beginning. It’s just- we don’t necessarily always keep track of things, so, again, keeping that notes going on LinkedIn, I love that suggestion. What about resources? What resources are available for those starting a career change besides you?

0:38:10 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, outside of you know, career counseling, I mean, there’s tons of resources online too. There really is. So that exists. There’s a bunch of online courses. So there’s opportunities for exploration in a number of facets. If that’s self-exploration, if that’s career exploration, if that’s industry exploration, that all exists. Your professional networks, you know, can be a resource. Industry specific associations: I lead people that direction. So, for example, people wanting to move into HR, you know, I may say, if this is really an interest of yours, why don’t you look at SHRM, s-h-r-m, and go take a look at their website? What does the organization stand for? What types of continuing education do they offer? What trainings are available? What publications are they putting out? Go read, go learn, go educate. You know, kind of where you put your time and energy in. Absorbing content can really be informative and really really be useful as well.

0:39:02 – Kimberly King

And that’s a really good point too. Like you said, HR for a public relations society. Everybody pretty much has groups that are attached to them and that’s really great for networking. You talked a little bit about mentoring and, just you know, really talking and networking. How important is a mentorship in the process of career pivoting?

0:39:22 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

You know, I think any good career pro would talk about the benefits of mentorship, that just that guidance and support can be really valuable. Also the industry insight. But I tell people too, the wonderful thing about a mentor is that you’re getting inside knowledge and an impartial support person who has no other, no other vetted interest than trying to help you, and so they can truly help you kind of navigate those challenges. They can assist you in setting realistic goals that align with the field that you’re moving into, and they can also really help you stay motivated. Mentorship is such a wonderful aspect for anyone on any career journey, and I tell people: take advantage of networking in your current role. Find those people who are value adds to your professional experience. Find those people, maybe outside your industry, who can also provide guidance and support.

Mentors don’t have to necessarily be in the field that you work in. They can be in another field too and still have something to offer. Maybe it’s in a leadership position. It had to advance into a different leadership position, maybe in a different industry. So they’re in one industry, you’re in another, but you’re looking to advance into a different leadership position, maybe in a different industry. So they’re in one industry, you’re in another, but you’re looking to advance into an executive role and they currently sit in that executive role. That’s a great relationship, really impartial too, because it’s in a completely different field of work, so they may be able to provide you some perspective that you hadn’t considered. And also-

0:40:41 – Kimberly King

Yeah, go ahead. I love that. I think that’s a really good that it doesn’t have to be this in the same industry.

0:40:45 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, and oftentimes people don’t land in the same roles the same way too. There’s a lot to be learned from a mentor, just in how they maybe got to where they’re at, what did their journey look like? And you know, if there’s learning that can come of that. Sometimes it’s just hearing that there’s not one particular entryway or one particular point to consider, or maybe it’s a learning that they’ve garnered from their experiences that they can impart knowledge on. You know, don’t do this, or maybe I really learned this and I wish I would have known this sooner. Mentors can really be great guidance in providing that information.

0:41:19 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love what you said too, that it can be a really a realistic conversation, whereas when you know you’re just going in for the interview or whatever, but if you have somebody kind of guiding you and giving them their life experience, I guess the next question would be where do you find a good mentor for your career guidance?

0:41:37 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh, my goodness, I tell people not to negate people in their own close personal networks. I think about concentric circles, right. So you’ve got your really close personal network these are friends and then you’ve kind of got your professional, like social work environment and then you’ve got your broader professional network and then you’ve kind of got this unknown. That’s like the external concentric circle of people that you haven’t met yet. I know, just strangers in the wind, but could be potentially beneficial strangers. So it looks like networking. It looks like attending professional events and putting yourself out there, being the first person to say hello.

I guide people a lot that, you know, if you’re in the market or if you’re considering changing industries or if you’re looking for a mentor, don’t be the first person that gets in the airplane and puts her headphones on.

0:42:22 – Kimberly King

Oh yeah, good point.

0:42:23 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Yeah, sit down and let the person next to you sit down. You never know who that person may be. It could be the CEO of a huge company that may be hiring,

0:42:31 – Kimberly King

and that’s often where it happens!

0:42:32 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

It is. I mean even in like more like- take advantage of the opportunities to talk to people. You could be at a friend’s barbecue. Like, step away from the people you’re close with, and go introduce yourself and put yourself out there and say hello to people maybe you haven’t met yet and take advantage of opportunities to learn.

0:42:51 – Kimberly King

And I know sometimes people are kind of shy and they’re you know, they’re like, oh, I don’t know, but it’s true, like you, just maybe that’s something to keep in the back of your head, like just to have some questions, whatever an icebreaker or something, you know. And that’s why I tell my daughter sometimes she can be shy and I’m like, oh my gosh, just talk to them.

0:43:08 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

I know, it’s the hardest thing too. If networking and is uncomfortable for people, I tell them, start small right. At your friend’s social events. Don’t just stick with the people that you already know. You know I’m guilty of this too. I’ll go someplace and I’ll kind of hang on to my husband for a second. My husband’s a social butterfly. He has no problem like walking around. He’ll talk to anybody and everybody.

He’s great at it, and so for me it’s just a little bit more of a go say hi, Jackie, go introduce yourself, and once you start getting in the habit, it is a skill. It’s a skill. Once you get in the habit of it, though, it does start to become more comfortable. You start to become more polished in the introduction, in the ask, maybe. In the hello. So I tell people you know, take advantages of places where it’s most comfortable, which is going to be at events that you know have people you already know there. That may be less comfortable in a networking event and maybe even more uncomfortable in an event where you don’t know a single soul, but take advantage of that opportunity to say hello. Two degrees of separation. There’s a lot of people who know someone, who knows someone, who knows someone.

0:44:10 – Kimberly King

And those little pats on the back after you do that and you’re like.

0:44:14 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Absolutely. Celebrate that victory 100%.

0:44:17 – Kimberly King

Exactly. And so I guess my last question would be what quality should you look for in a mentor? And that probably depends on the situation, right?

0:44:31 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Very much so. Very much so. So when you’re looking to pivot, you can look for mentors in your desired field. That’s one place right. But you can also look for a good mentor for qualities you know in a good mentor, by just knowing someone who’s approachable and someone who’s willing to share their knowledge, like those are such great qualities. Again, that mentor doesn’t have to necessarily be in your industry. It doesn’t have to be in your field.

You can ask someone to be a mentor if you just realize my goodness, having a conversation with this person is really easy and it’s really seamless. And they have some knowledge they can impart on me. That becomes a great opportunity to ask for a potential mentorship relationship. You know they should be supportive, they should be able to provide constructive feedback, they should be able to help you set and achieve your goals. But again, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the industry that you’re going into or you’re in the industry that you work in. It could be from a past industry, it could be via recommendation, like, hey, I know someone. They’d be a great mentor for you, I’d love to introduce you. Looking at those soft handoffs or those soft introductions can be great too.

0:45:39 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that is a really good thing. We appreciate you joining us, and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website at nu.edu. And thanks again for your time today.

0:45:46 – Doctor Jaqueline Kus

Oh, my goodness, my pleasure. It was such a joy chatting with you. Thank you so much for having me.

0:45:53 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.