0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today, we’re going to be talking about prison reform and some of those success stories and what that really means. And, according to a recent published article about prison reform, reentering society after incarceration can be daunting. However, prison fellowship and reform provide essential support systems designed specifically for this phase of life transition. Their community re-entry programs equips former inmates with necessary resources, such as job training workshops that help develop marketable skills aligned with local employment needs and making it easier for them to secure jobs upon release, while fostering self-sufficiency instead of recidivism. There is a lot to get into today with today’s guest, so stay with us.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about correctional reform, issues in prison reform and rehabilitation, issues in prison reform and rehabilitation, and joining us is National University’s professor in the College of Law and Public Service, Chandrika Kelso. Chandrika has served in a variety of academic administrative roles, from program director, online course content developer to department chair. Her research interests are inclusive of topics in criminal justice law. Interests are inclusive of topics in criminal justice law, mediation, negotiation, security and corrections. She has been actively engaged in volunteer work for Alternatives to Violence Project since 1996 as a prison coordinator and co-coordinator and lead trainer, providing creative conflict resolution workshops with varying themes from grief, trauma, forgiveness to community building, empathy and more for prison, parole, probation and other community settings.

She’s also the founder of Helping Without Prejudice Foundation, an inmate-centered charity that supports peer-to-peer inmate self-help groups, which focus on victim empathy, inmate-led music programs, life care and hospice, humanistic interactions with mental health-challenged inmates, insight meditation, 12-step mediation, rehabilitation through beautification landscape project and wall murals. She also has a tremendous experience in the field of correctional rehabilitation and works closely with the CDCR in providing positive programming pathways to the incarcerated population. Wow, that is a mouthful. We welcome you to the podcast. How are you doing?

0:03:00 – Chandrika Kelso

I’m doing well. Thank you so much, Kimberly, for having me here today. Appreciate it.

0:03:04 – Kimberly King

Absolutely. Why don’t you fill our audience a little bit in on about your mission and your work before we get to today’s show topic?

0:03:14 – Chandrika Kelso

Okay, as you’re aware, I’m a full-time faculty member, with National University. On the side, I’ve been volunteering for the field of corrections, and so I am the coordinator for the Alternatives to Violence Project, and the mission really has been to serve the population that tends to be forgotten. We as a society tend to forget that those men and women behind closed doors or fences or electric walls, or whatever you want to call them, are humans. At the end of the day, they still are human beings. They’re somebody’s father, somebody’s brother, somebody’s husband, somebody’s boyfriend, somebody’s grandfather, somebody’s mom, grandmother. So all these roles that we have in society out here in the free world also exist in prison.

So that was sort of the reason why I got into rehabilitative work. I just really felt that we do a lot for a lot of people in society, but this particular population tends to be forgotten, and so when I found this Alternatives to Violence project back in 1996, I thought, wow, this is perfect for me. I can go and serve a population that is very much in need of external help. Because we’re volunteers, we do not get paid for this, and so it has to come from the heart, and this really spoke to me, and so that’s why I’ve been doing this for all these years and many more to come. Thank you.

0:04:42 – Kimberly King

Good for you. Yeah, today we are talking about correctional reform, issues in prison reform, and rehabilitation. And so tell me please, you know, tell me a little bit about your intro, a little bit you just mentioned, but your prison work and what you do and why. So was there a particular something that got you into it, other than I know? You said it is a forgotten population, but was there somebody or something that really sticks out to you?

0:05:09 – Chandrika Kelso

Not somebody or something, but yeah, I guess someone. I’m very- In fact, my foundation sort of talks about it under Who Am I? It’s really a credit to my mother. My mother was a phenomenal lady. She passed, of course. She’s no longer with us, and she’s always had, has always demonstrated a unique compassion for people around her, and I grew up in India and so I grew up with her and saw her kind acts.

But I believe I was pretty young I don’t remember, you know, before high school, I remember seeing an old movie that was based on a story about a warden who takes these six incarcerated persons and takes them to a farm and does phenomenal things with them and they change their views on how people should be, and I don’t know, for some reason the songs were really good and it really impacted me. So later on in life, as I was, I worked in jury for a little bit and did other kinds of jobs and something just kept drawing me to wanting to do volunteer service. But I really just didn’t want to join any normal volunteer service where you have, you know, just droves of people, hundreds of people wanting to do that. So as I started researching you know where are the volunteer spots most needed. Who needs help?

That’s when I found AVP. They had run an advertisement in the newspaper and it was come join us for a prison workshop, and it was really funny story. They had asked for $40 deposit but they said if you do the three-day workshop, we’ll return your money. So I thought, well, I’ve got three days, go do it, and if I don’t get my money back, it’s $40 to the prison donation. If I get my money back, great, I’ve learned something. So when I went and I did my three days, I fell in love with it and I said well, what do I do next? So then I had to go to the second class, which is another three days, and then the training and the certification. And I did all that, and little did I know at the time when I got into it that it would become my passion to such a large extent that I would be running that program in the same prison where I trained.

0:07:26 – Kimberly King

Wow, wow. I like that full circle moment and, I do like what you say. I mean, it is a forgotten population and I think just showing the incarcerated persons as they are called now, the IPs, what you know a little bit of attention and empathy and just really getting maybe to know their stories, depending on you know, it’s just showing them some compassion, I think, and there are a lot of programs I know here in San Diego and we can talk about that in a little bit, but what are some of the societal approaches to crime and criminals?

0:08:00 – Chandrika Kelso

So we tend to be either punitive, or therapeutic, or preventive, right. We want to do one of those three things. We either want to punish people, we want to understand people, or we want to provide them with therapy, and I think that’s a great idea. I think it works really well, depending on the crime. And I, even though I completely believe in rehabilitation, I don’t think in some cases, depending on the kind of situation you’re dealing with, that rehab is just it. Just providing somebody with therapy is not a magical solution. It’s not going to work. They might need medication as well. So the societal responses and approaches to crime, I think, are well thought of and they do work. Where we really need to focus on more also is the preventive approach as well as a therapeutic approach, because I think the field of corrections does a phenomenal job, especially CDCR California. I mean, they’re always looking for new, innovative ways of doing things and delivering things for the IP population.

However, we could do more. I think we could have more rehabilitative programs, but there is no funding for it. You know there’s not a lot of funding and so you need to have volunteers come in, and the prisons are very, very supportive. Preventive, of course, comes in so many ways, whether it’s childhood prevention or adulthood prevention. There are so many ways we can do that and we do do that. I honestly have been around enough juveniles. I have been around adult incarcerated population and in my work at National University I obviously am with students who are in law enforcement. Woohoo, law enforcement, we love our CJ students and so you hear it all. You know you hear the military and my past work with the military have seen the breaks. So I think we are doing as well as we can under the circumstances, but there is always you can do more. There’s nothing out there in society that is all done. There’s always an opportunity to do more, and that’s kind of where I’m focused on it. There’s always an opportunity to do more. Let me do my part, whatever little it is.

0:10:13 – Kimberly King

Oh, that’s good and it’s true, we’re always shifting and you know, to be able to remain flexible and then just really talk to both sides, every side and just really hear from our community is important. And so rehabilitation- let’s talk a little bit about that, about it is such an important field. And again, in San Diego, at the sheriff’s office, I know they have a fabulous re-entry program which and maybe you can talk about that but how does that serve society in other ways and why should we care about that?

0:10:47 – Chandrika Kelso

Why should we care about that? That is a question I get asked quite a bit, even from my own friends and family who say there are so many other causes. Why are you wasting your time in prison? I’ve had these conversations with people and I completely understand that. Prison isn’t for everybody. Why should we care? We should care because you really don’t know who your neighbor is.

You could be going to San Diego Zoo and spending a great day with your kids and extended family members and you have no idea who the guy walking next to you is, or the lady that’s walking behind you. And if we don’t, maybe they were incarcerated and they didn’t learn any skills and then you’re going to have the ripple effect. So we need to care about rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is restructuring, reformation of the individual. We want to teach them some skills that are positive. We want them to engage in that- you know, that fluid motion of positive thoughts, like when we wake up in the morning.

We are not thinking about I’m going to be a good person. Some individuals do, some individuals they have to struggle with it. And I’m not going to be a bad person. I’m not going to do anything crazy today. I’m not going to go rob people, I’m not going to go burglarize. So I think rehabilitation is where we might be able to get some answers. Because if we fix, if we help, again with the San Diego Sheriff’s Department, CDCR, Bureau of Prisons, they’re constantly identifying methods and ways and avenues on how we can provide rehabilitation and therapeutic services. Because if you fix that individual or provide him with a toolkit, a toolbox of how to manage his anger, how to manage his shame, how to talk about his abuse, then he may be in a better state of mind that when somebody asks him a question, fists are not flying, words are flying, kind words are coming out.

So that’s why rehabilitation is important, because it impacts each and every one of us every single day. I think about that all the time when I’m driving and I look over into a car next to me and I think wonder what this guy’s story is, wonder what her story is. Does she have anybody, any happiness? Does she have sorrow? Is it anything? And then I generally offer a blessing in my heart- I hope you have a blessed day. You know, generally offer a blessing in my heart. I hope you have a blessed day because that’s all I can do. But in prison I can do more in terms of the tools that I can share with them, that I have learned in my life through the curriculum in AVP.

0:13:15 – Kimberly King

That’s great. I love hearing that. I heard a story probably a few months ago, and it was an incarcerated woman who was able to, she’s on the outside now speaking because she went through this rehabilitation reentry program. But I thought what I really enjoyed hearing her speak is- and just so you know, she was in there for drug possession, but also I think she was dealing. And that’s how she got into it.

But it was the deputy that took her to the all women’s prison here in San Diego. And he just looked at her from, you know, in the front of his car and just said, you are better than this. And he really stayed in touch with her and then kind of really brought her back together while she was incarcerated. She was, you know, stopped talking to her family, to her mom in particular., but that deputy stayed really invested in her and so the time that I saw her speak, I was so it was very emotional but also very inspiring, especially for the other inmates. So she came back and spoke to these other women saying, if I can do it, you can do it, and it was.

You know, I know it’s a process and it does take time and that investment with you know the financial part, but but that’s really what you’re saying is that you know when you treat them as others would, as we all would, and show them some of that grace, that possibility exists and so I think it’s wonderful. Sorry for the little rant there the side, but I wanted to share that because what you do is impactful and so that impact of rehabilitation on the inmates and the prison as a whole. Talk a little bit about that and, you know, is this a possibility in today’s world?

0:15:02 – Chandrika Kelso

Absolutely 100%. I think it’s a possibility in today’s world. The impact, I think, is tremendous and you know, as a researcher and as a professor, I can tell you that, or I can look at numbers and I can look at statistics and tell you this, that and the other, but there is a whole segment that doesn’t always participate in studies, so we may never know the success rate of those, and those are the ones I’m most interested in. So the impact of rehabilitation in general and the story that you shared is beautiful because I can relate to that story.

I’ve had guys go through the same thing. They come out, they’ve gotten married, they have children now and their journey doesn’t end once they get out on parole. Their journey continues with me, they keep in touch with me, they let me know what’s going on, and so you see that in work you see the transformative power that is able to not just change who they are to a certain degree, but also their environment. Because if I’m a happy person, I’m going to be kind to other people with whom I might share space. If I’m kind to other people, I’m fighting less, I’m arguing less, I’m being less disruptive. So, for the prison overall, when you have individuals who’ve gone through these kind of rehabilitative programs or educational programs. I mean they do receive credit, as you know, for their participation in programs under the RAC credits or milestone credits when they’ve gone through that.

Overall it’s beneficial to the prison because they are engaged in pro-social activities. They are engaged in positive activities, as opposed to sitting in a corner where the cameras don’t watch you and engage in bad activity. This way they’re learning something, educating their mind, educating themselves, and they take a lot of pride when graduation comes.

Last year I was at the graduation for UCI University of California, Irvine had its first graduating class and it was phenomenal. You know the cohorts that have graduated have been my students. They’re all my AVP facilitators, so I get to enjoy that. Oh wow, you know, I saw you when you came in 15 years ago and you were still sort of being a knucklehead and today you’re no longer a knucklehead, you’re a brainiac and it’s really nice to see the transformation. But again, I think it depends on the kind of rehabilitation program. AVP has always believed that there is a power of good in all of us and so through our workshops we kind of focus on that. We start off our workshops with the affirmation you have to pick a positive adjective. And so 1996, I’m in prison. I thought, okay, I’ll pick cherishable, because I want to be cherished. Even when I’m gone from this earth I want to be cherished. So the guys know me as Cherishable Chandrika,

0:17:57 – Kimberly King

Oh I love that.

0:17:58 – Chandrika Kelso

Thank you. So that’s something that we want to aspire to. You know, I not yet, but eventually I want to be cherishable, and so it’s teaching them right from the start, right on day one, we focus on that- positive, positive, positive. Think about a positive adjective that describes you, that maybe it described you before you came to prison, or maybe it describes you- you want to ascribe to it and you want to work towards it and someday be that. And we’ve noticed that it makes a huge difference in the guys for them to- you know, they come up with fancy names like Jazzy J, and it’s fun, but at the same time, it’s when you really hear their story of why did you pick that name? It’s because it has a story. Oh, my dad used to play jazz music. Or my mom it was a great cook, or you know, she was sweet and that’s why I picked Dulce. Things of that nature. So rehabilitation I think doesn’t just help the inmate, incarcerated population, it helps the prison, it helps the COs, because a happy population is more productive and they’re going to be happy. The less time you have to spend on disciplining them.

0:19:08 – Kimberly King

Right. So I have a question for you, and this is literally in the different, you know, jails here Again I’ve used San Diego as the example, but you know, there’s the high security to the lower level security, and different than a prison obviously as well. But I know that we, you know, in your intro we were talking about, you know, the kind of rehabilitation things that are offered, like the landscape. I know here in San Diego there’s a bakery, you know, and this is for the low level security, and so they are learning, they’re refixing bikes and doing all kinds of things. There’s a library, some of them even get their degrees. But what kind of programs are available to rehabilitate those serious offenders, like those who’ve committed lewd acts with children, rape, murder, that kind of thing? Is that a possibility to rehabilitate for a serious act?

0:20:04 – Chandrika Kelso

I believe so, I believe so. I think, when we look at sex offenders, to a certain degree, again, depending upon the extreme nature of the violent act, I think when you have cognitive behavior therapy along with medication, I think the confluence of the two has a better result. So the recidivism rates might be different. But just talking to them is not going to help anyone.

I think we need to as a society, again, we have to realize that sometimes, you know, I’m a migraine sufferer and there are days when I can actually get through without having to take any medication and there are days where I have to because it’s so severe that I have to do something about it. And so, when it comes to rehabilitation, and depending on the nature of the crime, I tend to be of the view that not everything can be fixed by therapy, not everything can be fixed by experiential work. Just me, sharing my work is not going to make you change your attitude towards me or the world. There’s got to be something else.

So for some people, you know, depending upon chemical imbalances, as you’re aware, you know, with the field of criminology. I mean there is so much research on whether it’s the full moon impacting it, or the blood type impacting it, or nature versus nurture. We have so many research articles and studies that have linked so many different things to why people commit crime.

So I think for certain kinds of violent offenders, perhaps it’s a combination, as we’ve seen success with cognitive behavioral therapy with certain kinds of medications. I think the two together might be a better recipe for success. However, there are other cases, such as I have a lot of lifers on my facilitating team. So in ABP we train the confined population to become team members for us and they become facilitators for us after grueling classes and apprenticeships and et cetera. So they go through many hours of that. So most of them not most, but majority of them are lifers and they are lifers and LWOPs.

Life without parole and, as we are aware, you don’t get life sentence for nothing. So those are some pretty horrible crimes, crimes, murders, and I work with them. I had one individual who was accused of 16 rapes and was convicted of that, but he’s a good facilitator for us because he’s able to see that what he did was wrong and I think it really starts with remorse. I mean, is the remorse external when I’m going to say I’m sorry, you know, with a smile, I’m sorry, but nothing really could conveys to me I’m not really sorry, I’m just saying it because you want to hear it, Mike wants to hear it. But so saying it for the sake of people wanting to hear is very different than really feeling the apology. And so with hardcore murderers, yeah, definitely, reform is very much possible. In fact we’ve had quite a few who’ve gone through ABP, who used to be lifers and are now out on parole and doing phenomenally wonderful things.

So I’m a firm believer that it’s not the crime that keeps you from changing who you are, it’s who you are. If you are not ready to change who you are, then you’re going to continue to remain in that mindset of a sewer. You know sewer is good for some dwellers. I understand that there are all kinds of creatures that live in the sewer and that works well for them, but it’s not suitable for everybody.

So if a person comes to us and says, hey, we want to change, I don’t like who I have, we have, you know, big, big time criminals such as we have Mafia people, Mexican mafia guys have defected from the mafia and joined our group and have gone through the program of rehabilitation and they want to preach it. They want to not preach it in a religious sense, but look what I’ve done for myself, because I have changed who I am. So they want to impress upon the younger population that don’t take my route, don’t join gangs, don’t do this, don’t do that.

So anytime you have a program, I’m not going to say that every program is successful. I would never say that. What I will say is every program that you offer is one little tool you’re giving them towards success. So what’s the harm? Let’s throw it all at them and it’s up to them to pick up the stones that they’re getting and turn them into diamonds. If not, they can walk over and that’s done. So it’s all up to them.

0:24:53 – Kimberly King

Yeah, at least they see that there are resources available. Yes, absolutely. What is the main initiative of the California model and the Green Space Project? I don’t think I’m familiar with that. What is that?

0:25:06 – Chandrika Kelso

So the California model is. You know, originally it started with the Norway prison system, right, and so with that, what we are looking at really is how to normalize. How do we normalize a prison system? So there is, you know, making CDCR more like a trauma-informed institution. Normalization, having dynamic security where officers are able to converse with the confined population as though they’re talking to you and I. You know, it’s usually it’s a number, right, it’s usually a number, and so when people are referred to, they’re referred to by their number or they’re referred to by their last name. So I become a Kelso and I have a number assigned to me.

But there is a whole part of me. I have a name. I was given a birth name when I was born, but nobody uses it in prison. So under the California model, that’s one of the approaches to how do we normalize it. Because when an incarcerated person exits prison, he or she is not going to be called by a number. Nobody’s going to call- if I a number, nobody’s going to call. If I serve time, nobody on the street is going to call me Kelso. They’re going to call me, excuse me, ma’am, or ask for my name, and if I say the last miss or mister or whatever it is. And so that’s the part of this dynamic security, where officers and and the population can mingle in a friendly manner, and normalization appeals to the sense of normalcy that we want.

Prison is a very stark environment. There are a lot of noise which we can’t control. When you have 800 to 1,000 people living in a yard then obviously there’s going to be a lot of noise, but it’s concrete. Concrete buildings and concrete walls and it’s gray everywhere. But when they exit prison that’s not what they’re going to see. They’re going to see buildings, they’re going to see skyscrapers, they’re going to see cottages, they’re going to see everything. So the normalization is to bring a little bit of normalcy. Let them cook their own food. So there are some success stories with the California model where they’ve actually rolled it out and seen major changes. So Donovan is one of those facilities where they are trying to incorporate that and we are trying really hard to do that.

And Green Space Project fits into that because it also brings that mental health support. You know, when you say you want to be a trauma-informed organization or help with trauma, you need to know what their trauma is, and studies have over the last few years demonstrated that the constant dull noise of prison can be very sometimes overstimulating for those who might have certain kinds of mental disorders, right? Mental health issues, autism, et cetera.

And so lack of green space they don’t get to see any green space, it’s all gray, it’s just gray, gray, gray, gray, gray. So this green space project, which was spearheaded by Lyle Melendez I’m sure you know of him, him and his brother, very famous, notorious from Beverly Hills, so they’re both housed at Donovan. And so Lyle had pitched this idea. I’ve known both of them for years. Lyle had pitched this idea to me a few years ago and I wasn’t really sure if I wanted to join this program because I didn’t think California or prisons in general were ready for that, especially here down here, you know, with our resources.

 And it turns out that we are. We just had a landscape artist- we had to have him come and give us some specs on that and he’s been working on it for the last four months and he just submitted his final report. So, who knows, we might be able to provide that, and the Green Space Project has two phases.

Phase one is the murals, where Eric is doing along with a team of muralists. They’re painting beautiful, phenomenal murals, and one of the murals I’m most proud of is National University is a veteran-founded university, as you’re aware, and we serve the military. In fact, my first class was at MCRD base, so I and we live in a military town. I have two nephews who serve in the US Army and so and my father-in-law was in the Air Force, so I come from a military family and to some extent, and so one of the murals we are doing at Donovan is actually a military themed mural. We were supposed to have a grand celebration back in November, but we suffered some delays in getting it done because we’re going to have ships painted out there and it’s almost done but not ready, so we’ll see what happens. The prison has been in lockdown, so they couldn’t get it done for President’s Day either, so it’ll probably be a couple of months.

So the muralist phase one of the project. Sorry, sorry, I digressed. Mural one is phase one of the project, or the murals. Phase two is the green space. So this is a structural landscape support design project. So what it’s going to do is it is going to create green spaces. It’s also going to create dog relief areas. It’s going to create a sense of community. The hope is that by creating these social circles, social network areas where the population can sit and hang out and look at some greenery, that it might improve their mental health. Outdoor space- Anytime you go outside it’s kind of fun, but you want to make it a little more livable. And also the biggest aspect of that is, besides the incarcerated population’s mental health needs, it is also for the dogs. So Guide Dogs of America- you might be familiar with them, along with the Pooch Program. So they train dogs at Donovan.

And so we have two yards at Donovan, Delta Yard and Echo Yard that trains the dogs and so the incarcerated population handlers, in fact, every class I teach I have four to five dogs in my classroom and they’re just hilarious because they go wherever their master’s going. It’s really cute, like they’re dads.

But the dogs end up eventually being adopted into homes where children and adults have autism-related issues, need a companion dog, or wounded warriors. So these dogs are serving a huge need in society. I mean, they’re really out there and helping, and we need to have a space that is better for them as well, especially in the summer. They have to put those leather booties on those dogs because it’s so hot.

0:31:45 – Kimberly King

Yeah right.

0:31:46 – Chandrika Kelso

Yeah. So this green space you know it’s kind of dual- One is the dog, where we want to make sure the dogs are okay, so the humanity of it as well as the incarcerated population. There is the other humanity piece of it, so it serves two purposes and the murals, of course, are visually very beautiful to look at, where you could just walk in, it’s spectacular.

0:32:07 – Kimberly King

You know, and again, people really don’t realize until you start to think about it. But you know, I think it’s just really giving somebody a purpose. And when you lose sight of that purpose in your, you know, now you have just redirected, so that’s great. And it happens to incarcerated and not incarcerated, so it can happen a long way for anybody, right. How do these rehab programs contribute to inmate growth and then change, really is the question?

0:32:39 – Chandrika Kelso

A lot. I think you know it’s not just necessarily that they are chrono chasers, right? Sometimes people say, oh, he’s just chasing a chrono which is a chronological record of you know that he did X, Y and Z. It’s just not that, it’s internal change as well, because we look at so many different topics in rehabilitation programs. Whether you have criminal gangs, anonymous or criminogenic thinking or, like AVP, for example, we are looking at positive ways of communication. We are looking at how do you mediate yourself from out of a fight into communication, right conflict to communication. How do you take self-worth? Because a lot of times we’ve also noticed that people who have maybe low self-esteem tend to be more, how do I put it? Sensitive, so they tend to be more sensitive. So when somebody looks at them a microsecond longer, that could actually lead to a problem behavior of, why are you staring at me? Why are you looking at me like that? And so some of the programs, some of the classes that we do and we look at forgiveness, we look at grief, because grief is a very important aspect of who they are and a lot of them have lost family members and they’ve never dealt with it.

You know, while in prison they’ve lost family members or the other kind of grief they suffer, is loss of life. When you are told at 18, 19, 20, or even 30 years old, it’s life without parole, you’re done, you’re in prison for the rest of your life. And now you have to make sense of that that your life as you planned is dead. This is a new life, this is new rebirth, and some have not dealt with that at all. Or a two-year sentence. We had a guy in class two weeks ago saying oh, you know, I have, I got three years, I have to finish up. And the guys were like literally trying to tell him that dude, I’m Elva, I’ve been here for 40 years. What are you talking about? Your four years is nothing, but it was his grief. It was his grief that he lost four years with his child and we can all relate to that.

You know, my grief is not the same as yours. Yours is not the same as anybody else’s, because we all deal with grief differently. So rehabilitation programs focus on that forgiveness. You have to forgive yourself, to forgive others and seek forgiveness from others. Why do we need forgiveness? Because we need to move on, we need to be able to improve upon ourselves. So they filled those needs of it.

One of the class I developed under my umbrella of HWAP is victim impact, victim empathy. Because we have, and that was actually developed in conjunction with Eric and it was because we were looking at how do we help the population feel an impact of their crimes, how do we teach them how to have empathy for the victim they’re never going to see? That victim after the court case is done. She or he is not around, but you still need to have some empathy, because if you have empathy for a victim that’s invisible, maybe you will have empathy for those who are in front of you. Maybe you won’t repeat the act. And so when you look at the California model, for example, under rehab, so you have peer mentorship right. So one of the pillars is peer mentorship. The other pillar is becoming a trauma-informed institution, which is what you know organization which Donovan very much is, normalization and dynamic security. So when you look at prison rehab programs, they fulfill that peer mentorship, because peer mentorship from peer to peer within the inmate population or incarcerated population is very valuable.

I could go to them and in one of my workshops and talk all day about how I was driving and this guy cut me off and I honked at him and or I sped up- I don’t want you to tell that to the sheriff that I do occasionally speed- so you know I sped up and I cut him off and I was very happy because I was able to do that. That is not going to relate to many of them, because some of them have been in juvenile hall and going to adult prison. They’ve never driven a car, so they can’t relate to that. But somebody who is from prison says I was in the canteen line and somebody cut me off and this is how I resolved it, without using fists and legs. That’s much more valuable. So that fits that California model’s peer mentorship, peer-to-peer mentorship from the CO to the inmate, mentorship volunteers to IP. So this is constant. It’s a constant thing that goes on. So rehabilitation programs do help in those areas.

0:37:22 – Kimberly King

This has been so interesting and I know- and you may or may not be able to even answer this, but you did mention Lyle and Eric Menendez and you know they’ve obviously been in the news so much. So what’s happening with that right now, and is that, or can you even talk about that?

0:37:42 – Chandrika Kelso

I’m not going to discuss their legal part of the case because they have a hearing coming up on January 30th and 31st and so I don’t want to discuss that. But from a rehabilitation perspective, I would certainly say that they are model citizens. They have incorporated rehabilitation to a level that is not commonly seen. So when you say, does rehab work? I would definitely say these two brothers will prove to you that it does.

0:38:15 – Kimberly King

And do they provide peer support for others because of the rehabilitation?

0:38:19 – Chandrika Kelso

Oh yes, yeah, so they’ve gone through rehabilitation themselves and so they’ve come up with green space, you know, this whole thing with the California model that is part of his rehabilitation, that’s part of Lyle’s rehabilitation that he wanted to look at they tend to focus more on areas that not just benefit them but benefit others, and so improving the environment, the surrounding of the prison, means you’re going to have healthier IP population. Healthier IP population means my life is going to be happy too, because I live there, and so that is the mindset.

As for these classes that we’ve developed, whether it’s toxic shame or life care and hospice that again comes from their own inner desire. You know whether it is a personal edification or a professional desire to do things better, but it comes from that place of you’ve seen people in prison. We always talk about how, under ADA as you’re familiar with, you know the city, the state by law we have to provide certain services to ADA inmates.

But what we don’t really focus on is what happens to that guy. You give him a wheelchair, you give him a lower bunk, and then what? He still has to get from his chair to his bunk. He still has to get off his bunk and get into the chair. So it’s not an easy task. For some of them, it’s not an easy task. Or navigating those stairs. Now you have to make sure they’re on the lower level and also the food line. Sometimes people cut in front of them because it’s a wheelchair, it’s going slow. Their property can be stolen, they can be manipulated, people can exploit them because they’re a very vulnerable population. So when you have people- younger population with a mixed crowd, and then you have those with disabilities- mental disabilities or physical disabilities- the others are, some of them, are going to prey on them.

So one of the classes in the peer-to-peer mentorship is about LCH- life care and hospice. That was developed by one of my facilitators. Eric developed that class and it’s going really great. We’ve been offering it for a few years. It runs every Friday and it’s a 90-minute class and a lot of guys attend. So it’s not the goal of teaching the wheelchair-bound IP or confined person or justice-involved individual how to be okay. It’s more to teach the younger population. A young guy comes in. How is he going to relate to him? He’s never been in a wheelchair but you’ve got to relate to him because you have to be kind. You might end up sharing a cell with him, if you can’t understand what his background is or what his negatives are in daily life in terms of how is he going to navigate, if you can’t inculcate that, then it’s going to be a disaster. So you’ve got to teach them kindness and empathy, and so that’s what the classes do.

0:41:07 – Kimberly King

It is so much about, and no matter what we are dealing with in life and you’ve said, this has been kind of the theme- and that is we know, we don’t know what we don’t know. And as long as you meet people where they’re at, ask questions, learn, be willing to be open about it. But even you know- you mentioned the ADA, the disabilities- inside, you know, the prison cell or outside too. Sometimes people have a disability that you don’t even see, you’re not aware of and you know. Again, it’s just being able to have a conversation or learn about it, and so you know, I appreciate this. My last question to you would be, and you’ve kind of woven this a little bit throughout this interview, but do you have a story that is most rewarding and the aspect of your work? I don’t know if that’s something that sticks out.

0:41:59 – Chandrika Kelso

So a rewarding story. I have so many rewarding stories. So recently I had a gentleman who had gone and he used to be in the banking industry and he served. He ended up serving about six years and he came out after six years. He took our programs and did really well. He was one of my lead facilitators and he texted me from another state on New Year’s Day to tell me that he’s actually joined the banking industry and he’s working, because the crime that he went in for was a vehicular issue, nothing to do with moral turpitude.

So therefore, after he served his sentence, he went right back to work. So we see those kinds of success stories. We have guys who come out and find phenomenal jobs. They do really well. They get married. One of my most touching stories, I would say, is a guy who came out and wanted to get married and he had served- he went in when he was 19 years of age. He went in for a burglary, and gang-related burglary from, I believe, Riverside. Went in at 19. Good-looking man, and so he was sort of being exploited by gangs and other people who were sort of trying to sell him to others. So he joined a gang and during the course of joining a gang, he did certain activities that added to his sentence, so he ended up serving 35 years.

0:43:31 – Kimberly King

Wow.

0:43:32 – Chandrika Kelso

He comes out after 35 years doesn’t know any- kind of knows, but doesn’t really know anything, anything. And so he was at one of the halfway houses here in San Diego County and he had come to different juvenile facilities that I had gone to, to do workshops with me and you know mental health etc. And he’s a reformed and so he had a lot to share. He ended up meeting a lady and got married and and at the ripe old age of 52, he became a dad. And so you know, you see this right, you see this, you go from wow, you served all these years and all this time. Not 52, a little more than that, because he went in, I believe at 17, and then added some time, but it was… It’s phenomenal to see that, that they can move through life and find that kind of happiness. But one of the- this may not fit what you asked me, but for me it’s an important part of my work at Donovan, a very moving story, moving experience I have. I’ve had many moving experiences.

And this one was when I was eight and a half months pregnant, and so I’m doing my workshop in one of the facilities and of course you know my child is kicking. My son was just kicking all over the place and so I’m rubbing my belly and just sort of massaging it so I would feel better. Some of the guys noticed and they were very concerned because here’s a pregnant woman who’s rubbing her belly. So one of them came and asked me are you okay? And I said yeah, I’m okay, it’s just a baby kicking. And he had gone in at a young age and had never seen, really not been around pregnancy and things of that nature and he couldn’t believe it. He said baby kicks and you can feel it? I said oh, absolutely. I said you want to see it and he’s like, yeah, I would like to see that. So I kind of, you know, made the dress taught. I was wearing a long dress and you could see the little hand, right, kicking and he started crying and I will always remember that. So he reached over to me and he said I bless you to have a healthy baby, and healthy.

At the time I didn’t know if it was a boy or a girl, but he was. I want you to have a healthy baby because you’ve shown me what the value of life is and it was those kind of experiences that are so unique. Have a healthy baby, because you’ve shown me what the value of life is, and it was. It’s those kinds of experiences that are so unique. Unfortunately, he’s still there. He’s still very much, he works with me still. So you know, my son is now almost 16 and a half years old and the story still resonates with me, and every time I go he always asks you know, how’s the baby? I say, well, he’s not a baby anymore. You saw him.

0:46:22 – Kimberly King

Yeah.

0:46:22 – Chandrika Kelso

He’s still in there. But, seriously, we do have a lot of moving stories like that where we see these people who’ve served 30 years, 35 years, come in at 17, come in at 18, done some weird stuff and gone home, come out and become very, very successful. So I am a strong proponent of rehabilitation for that reason and it really fits my university’s platform. You know, National University is all about the whole human education and I think this addresses that. For me, it’s like we are educating the whole human. It’s not just the ones who want to come back to school, it’s not just law enforcement, military. Hey, if you’re doing this too, because I mean, as I indicated, I’m a volunteer, so National is not paying me to go there, but what they have done is tremendous support and one of the beautiful aspects of rehabilitation or any kind of therapeutic services, especially that are volunteer based, is volunteers need support and without support we wouldn’t be doing what we are doing today.

And whether it is employer support or public support or you know, when we go to prison and we have the COs right, some of them joke with us and make comments about you know what they do when you’re gone and things of that nature, but it’s a support about you know what They understand the value that, hey, these guys, if we are able to teach them some transformative tools, but they can engage in that positive thought, that is natural, that is very fluid. It’s not an abstract concept, it’s not a concept that they don’t know how to feel. It’s a concept they felt and live with it. If we can teach them that, then when they come out, I’m not worried. Like a lot of these guys, when they parole and they come out, I don’t sit there lay awake at night wondering are they going to look me up and come looking for my house? And I never worry about that because I’ve worked with them. I know who they are. Do I vouch for everybody? No, of course not. There are some people I wouldn’t want them to know where I live, but there’s another people I work with. They’re just there in prison. So yeah, all kinds.

0:48:27 – Kimberly King

Well, beautiful work you do, and you are leaving behind quite a legacy there inside, outside and through your family and friends, and so, again, thank you. It’s nice to be able to have this conversation with you and open everybody’s eyes. We appreciate you joining us, and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It is nu.edu, and thank you again for your time.

0:48:52 – Chandrika Kelso

Thank you for giving me a platform to talk about my work, and not just my work, but in the hopes that this conversation leads to a bigger conversation about what we need to do as a society for rehabilitation. So thank you very much. I’m very, very grateful, with much gratitude.

Kimberly King: Thank you so much.

0:49:14 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.