0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today we’re talking about gender and identity, and on today’s show, according to Science Direct- a recent article, the 21st century has been a time of widespread cultural change in understanding and recognition of sexual and gender diversity across the globe and in many nations there is increased discourse about sexual diversity and its accommodation through law and social policies such as recognition of same-gender marriage and shifting terrains as people become more accepting of minoritized sexual identities.

Super interesting and more of this on today’s show. Stay with us. On today’s episode we’re talking about gender and identity, and joining us is Dr. Pam MacDonald, and she’s a professor of psychology and academic program director for the Child and Adolescent Developmental Psychology Program at National University. Pam has earned a doctorate in developmental psychology from the University of Houston and a master’s degree in experimental psychology. She’s also taught at the college level for over 30 years and has numerous publications and presentations on a variety of subjects in developmental psychology, with an emphasis on childhood and adolescence. And we welcome Pam back to the podcast. How are you?

0:01:59 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

I’m good. How are you doing?

0:02:01 – Kimberly King

I’m well. Thank you, why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s show?

0:02:08 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well, I mean, our mission, of course, at National University is, you know, to bring education to everyone, make it accessible to everyone. And you know my own mission, as you know, trying to train people in child and adolescent development to have that knowledge to help raise our kids to make a better society, I guess.

Help them to earn, you know, their degrees and to get into the jobs that they want to get into. And you know, our students are so good and so motivated and just are going to be wonderful, wonderful professionals in the field and working with children and adolescents and I’m, you know, I feel really lucky just to be a part of that and part of training them.

0:02:55 – Kimberly King

Oh, that’s wonderful. Well, today we are talking about gender and identity, and so tell me what- What is gender?

0:03:04 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well, gender refers to a lot of things- like expectations and roles and behaviors and identities that any given society deems to be appropriate for people to engage in based on their assigned sex, and a lot of people get gender and sex confused.

So gender is a cultural construct, whereas sex is biological. So when we refer to sex in the field of psychology, we mean someone’s hormones, their chromosomes, their reproductive anatomy. People can be male, female or intersex, meaning they have both male and female chromosomes or both male and female anatomy. Someone can be biologically female because they have female genitalia, but they also have a Y chromosome. For example, there are women that have XXY chromosomes, I think Jamie Lee Curtis is one of them, instead of just XX. And so it’s a lot more complicated than what people think when they think, you know there’s sex, there’s male female and gender there’s masculine, feminine. It’s way more complicated.

Gender is a cultural construct and it pertains, again, to the roles and the behaviors and the identities and a person’s biological sex may not align with their gender identity. In North America, western cultures, we generally acknowledge two genders, two gender identities masculine and feminine. But in many other cultures around the world, and in indigenous cultures of North America, there were numerous gender identities. A lot of cultures today have acknowledged more than two gender identities.

0:04:58 – Kimberly King

And it’s interesting the way that you’ve described it and explained it, and I think you’re right, a lot of people just assume. So can you now explain what is identity?

0:05:09 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well identity is our sense of who we are, as individuals and members of different social groups. And so identity is certainly not limited to gender. It intersects with race, class, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, all kinds of social categories. Identity develops, and then it becomes much more complex over time. So, for example, if you’ve asked a five-year-old to describe herself, she may use categories such as, I’m a girl, I live in California, I have a brother, I have a dog. And as she gets older, especially in the teenage years, she will likely talk about her inner self and include her values, her beliefs and her goals make it a much more complex identity.

Identity is fluid. It evolves over time. I mean, I’m sure you know, at my age, my identity has changed many times in many different ways, and as we try new things, we have new experiences, new insights, new relationships, and so our identity today may not be anything close to the identity that we had in the past. And I think you know anything close to the identity that we have in the past and I think you know parents of teenagers need to remember that, like identity exploration is normal. And so you know your kid comes home and they’re, you know, they’ve got blue hair or whatever and they’re dressed all goth or something and the parents just totally freak out.

Well, the more you freak out, I mean, the more entrenched they’re going to be in that identity and if you just start kind of like, oh you know, I’m going to take a bunch of pictures of you with this crazy blue hair and I’m going to show your kids, you know, later, when you have them, they’re going to be like oh, most kids do end up with an identity in different areas like religious identity very similar to the one they were raised with so.

0:07:03 – Kimberly King

No it’s so funny, I think I mean being a girl especially, and I think we typically our journal- You know, we, we have diaries or whatever, and I think that if I were to look back in my diary when I was a teenager, wow, how much I’ve changed.

0:07:16 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

I mean, like you, kind of get a little bit mortified my mom sent me a box of some of those things that she found and I’m reading through it and I was like who was this child? [Laughter.]

0:07:32 – Kimberly King

It’s funny and it is and we’re allowed to have. And I think about back, you know, when Elvis came onto the scene and all of those horrified, you know 1950s, right? So I think that also music is in part of our identity, all of that. So that’s interesting. How do cultural expectations influence gender development?

0:07:53 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well, cultural expectations influence how children perceive, how they express, how they understand their gender identity and roles. The expectations are transmitted through family, peers, education systems. I mean, basically anything that they come in contact with, and as parents or teachers or even just adults, we may do this unconsciously. So you know how many of us have said to a little boy “big boys, don’t cry” or “you need to toughen up” or told a little girl, “you need to be a good girl”.

And you know, “don’t be messy and don’t be noisy”, and so we are encouraging these. You know gender, gender roles, when we treat little boys and girls that way. The other day I saw a video of two very young children I’d say they’re about four or five years old, and it was like a video that I think the parent maybe had took of them, where they weren’t paying attention a parent or some adults and um, the little boy was telling the little girl he was just really sad. He said I’m gonna have to grow up and I’m gonna have to work and I’m gonna have to work to make money to support my wife and my family. And the little girl just kind of patted him and she says oh, I’m so sorry, I’m so glad I’m gonna have a husband to make money for me.

0:09:15 – Kimberly King

Oh, wow.

0:09:17 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

And that’s like a little little bitty you know and you’re like, it starts, starts very very young.

It can start really young and it can be really unconscious as well. Like if your son is playing with a toy truck or he’s knocking over blocks, you’re fine, you’re smiling, but he goes and gets a baby doll. You know, nurturing with the baby doll, you know, maybe there’s a scowl or just a little bit of disapproval, I don’t know about today, I think a lot of that has dissipated, but when I was a kid certainly. And so there’s that subtle, you know signals they’re getting you’re not saying anything.

You said I’ve never told my son not to play with baby dolls, you know, but they still get that. And then like advertisers. What are- what are dolls for boys called, are they?

0:10:02 – Kimberly King

Action figures.

0:10:03 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Action figures, right action figures, it’s not a doll right you tell a little boy sometimes oh, I like your doll, they’ll be like, “my doll?! This is my action figure!”

0:10:18 – Kimberly King

Right, right. It is, it’s the semantics in there, right. So, and this is so interesting and we’re talking about it how else is gender socialized? I guess it would really depend on how you’re raised and what is normal in your household, what those boundaries are, I guess.

0:10:35 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yeah definitely. But if we think about the broader culture, the media, you know, traditionally TV shows, movies, children’s books have depicted boys as being strong and dominant, the girls as being more gentle and submissive. Um, you know this has changed quite a bit from my childhood but we have a long way to go with, you know, representations of more flexible gender roles, of girls. You know, I can remember my kids- Kim Possible the cartoon, was like you know this superhero girl and I thought that was wonderful. We didn’t have Kim Possible when I was a kid, it was a great something for them to see and you know, I have two daughters so I really enjoyed that.

But we still see very few examples of kind of the non-traditional stuff fluid gender roles. We see even fewer examples of non-binary or transgender characters in movies and TV shows, although of course, you know, I think we see more of those today than probably at any other time. There’s still not that many.

0:11:41 – Kimberly King

I think, yeah, go ahead-

0:11:46 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yeah, and even our language. So our language we assign gender to nouns. In the English language and a lot of the romance languages where we have gendered nouns, we have pronouns, we have even occupations can be gendered. You know, we see in English language and Western culture we see some more gender neutral language coming out.

We see some acceptance of like they/them pronouns but it is far from universal, very far from universal. And so we still see, you know, just very gendered- in the early grades of school. You know, visiting the school not too terribly long ago, they were lining the kids up, boys and girls and separating them, boys and girls, and you know, like maybe that’s okay to do that day, but maybe next day line them up by what color they’re wearing.

You know, like mix it up, you know, but yeah, it can be very powerful for kids to see this and feel like, okay, well, I have to behave only in this way and not anything in this way.

0:12:52 – Kimberly King

You know, and that’s just. It brings me back. We always were lined up to from shortest to tallest, and I’m 5’1”-

0:12:59 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

So you’re still going to be gendered because [crosstalk] and that the short boy is going to be in with all the girls, and the tall girl is going to be over with all the boys.

0:13:11 – Kimberly King

Exactly. I was just going to also point out a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine. She wrote a children’s book and kind of really to what you were just speaking about. It’s called Wicked Knot and it is a children’s book, but it’s about how we have portrayed stepmoms as being the wicked stepmoms. And I love her twist on it.

0:13:29 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yeah, yeah, yeah, stepmoms can be wonderful. I have a friend too, her mom and her stepmom are her two parents. Cause her dad isn’t involved, yeah.

0:13:40 – Kimberly King

Oh, that’s, nice. So can institutions such as legal, economic and religious systems influence gender norms?

0:13:49 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Absolutely. So, if you think about legal systems, our laws and policies can define gender in very specific ways and can affect the rights and recognition. For example, in many states in the US, it is legal for men to go without a shirt, but not for women. So you know, there’s a gendered law right there and maybe it should be… maybe not legal for anyone to go without a shirt.

But, usually, you know, men can go around, boys can go around without shirts and girls are told that they can’t. In some countries, only men can inherit money or property. In our country traditionally, maybe you know that’s changing a little bit our legal system- who do they give child custody to? The mom. They give child custody to the mom even if the dad might be the better parent. They tend to be more biased towards giving that child custody to the mom because they assume because she’s a woman, she’s going to be more caring and nurturing, and that may not be the case, the dad may be much more caring and nurturing in that particular family.

But you know that’s something that gives them. You know that’s something. There’s a bias there, that’s in their head, whether it’s reality or not.

Religious beliefs can have a very profound influence, Many religions have specific teachings about gender roles and you know different, I guess sects of religion can have, um more, you know, different interpretations of what they’re saying in that religious text. It can be, you know, strict, it can be very, very um fundamentalist interpretation, or it can be, you know, interpreted in a very different way. And so I always think about when talking about religion and getting people to understand that, is like think about the Taliban in Afghanistan. We would not be able to be having this conversation right now if we were in Afghanistan.

You know, women are no longer allowed to speak or sing in public, and it’s just based on a very strict interpretation. You know, not all Islamic countries follow this with Sharia law. You know that they have that very strict interpretation. And so, you know, depending on what religion you were, your family, you kind of where you’re born, you know, and the religion that your family has can have a big influence.

And then economic systems, workplace dynamics, what jobs are attractive to men and women that they tend to go into. You hear people say, oh, I had a male nurse. Like, well, you had a nurse, whether he’s male or not, he’s still a nurse. But they’ll say that, you know, I had a male nurse. And you’re kind of like okay. But you know, in 2022, which was the most current statistic I could find women were earning 82 cents for every dollar that men made, and so that is an economic system in place that is, you know, affecting gender roles in some ways.

0:17:06 – Kimberly King

Yeah. Interesting.

0:17:07 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

You’re making decisions on who’s going to, you know, daycare is really expensive, so if you’re making a decision on who’s going to stay home with young children, you’re probably going to pick the person who’s making less money, and so then that’s going to perpetuate, even if Dad would love to stay home with the kids. Maybe dad is, you know, and if he doesn’t, he misses first steps, first words, first- you know they miss a lot of those things that maybe they would like to be a part of.

0:17:38 – Kimberly King

Right and I’ve I know I’ve had a lot of friends whose husbands are the stay at homes now and it’s just, it doesn’t, it doesn’t seem like it’s, you know, any different or looked at differently, at least in 2025.

0:17:46 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yeah, at least today, and yeah, yeah.

0:17:49 – Kimberly King

So how do strict cultural gender roles influence identity development?

0:17:55 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well, it can be very restrictive for identity development. Um, if you have really really strict cultural gender roles, it can suppress your authentic identity development and, you know, lead to distress or just not living your true self. An example I was thinking of is, let’s say a boy wants to be a dancer and his family, or you know where he lives, his religion, whatever is kind of like oh no, boys are not professional dancers. And so you know he might be like, okay, fine, I’ll just be an engineer instead.

And so he’s in this, you know, going to work doing engineering, crunching numbers all day… really wants to be dancing, you know, and maybe he would have been able to make a wonderful career doing that. And so he’s suppressing part of himself and maybe, maybe, missing out on his life’s passion. In extreme situations, you can suffer from feelings of inadequacy, low self-esteem, depression, anxiety or even an identity crisis.

On the flip side, though, if your gender roles align with your personal identity, say if you align perfectly with your assigned gender role, they can provide a sense of belonging and purpose and reinforce cultural traditions. It’s really when they’re overly restrictive that they can limit personal expression and hinder, you know, someone really living their passion or becoming self-actualized.

0:19:32 – Kimberly King

Yeah, there’s a lot of you know things that I think we’re talking about now, whereas before, yeah, we just didn’t talk about that. It seems children and adolescents today have more personal agency and opportunities for self-reflection in their identity development, and it appears that way on social media especially. Would you agree with that?

0:19:53 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Oh, I definitely agree. Globalization and media and being able to see people all over the world has opened up a world of possibilities. Social media I’m not going to say it doesn’t have problems. It has a lot of problems.

But it can provide spaces for young people to express themselves, to experiment with their identities, to find like-minded people, and it can greatly reduce their feelings of isolation in those cases. And for the most part, children and adolescents today are growing up in a world that values diversity and individuality. It provides them a lot more opportunities for personal agency and self-reflection and identity development. You know that freedom does come with many challenges, but it ultimately empowers young people to build resilient identities authentic identities.

0:20:51 – Kimberly King

and you know what you said right in the very beginning, we talked a little bit about a lot, but what can you describe- what is androgyny?

0:20:57 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

So androgyny is when someone has both masculine and feminine characteristics, and the term androgyny was really popularized in psychology by the psychologist Sandra Bem in the 1970s. But the concept has been around forever. So you know, for when I was talking about other cultures that acknowledge many different genders, in North America, indigenous cultures, they had Two-Spirit people, and those were the people that were thought to be born with both a male and a female soul and they were considered to be wise members of the tribe and revered members of the tribe.

And Two-Spirit people have been documented in over 155 tribes in every region of North America, from Canada down to Mexico. And in modern times, Sandra Bem, starting with her research in the 70s, found that individuals who integrate both masculine and feminine traits tend to be more adaptable and resilient. And in fact, research since then has revealed many benefits for androgynous people. The benefits include cognitive flexibility, creativity, better relationships, lower social anxiety, higher social competence, fewer mental health problems, and other benefits over those who embrace more traditional gender roles.

Now, that doesn’t mean that every androgynous person is going to be this wonderful psychologically healthy person, and every person who isn’t is not going to be, but it does provide, at least according to the research, some positives.

0:22:39 – Kimberly King

And I appreciate you explaining that. I know that sometimes the word gets thrown around and I think there’s still a little bit of confusion around that.

0:22:46 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

But- Right, I think people do get the, get it confused with oh, I’m blanking on the word but somebody who has sex organs of both.

0:22:55 – Kimberly King

Yes.

0:22:57 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

It’s not the sex organs- it’s the personality, you know it’s like you can be empathetic and caring and warm and nurturing, but also assertive and dominant, and you know, when the situation calls for it, that you can stand up for yourself. You know, and if we think about it, what the names that we call women who are assertive and dominant, which I’m not going to say because you got to figure it out, but versus the men, you know, like.

And then the names that you would call men who are being, you know, gentle and nurturing, are not complimentary but they should be like why I should be gentle and nurturing and warm in my personal relationships, but also assertive if someone’s trying to take advantage of me. That should be something that we can embrace both of those things.

0:23:42 – Kimberly King

Right, it shouldn’t be looked down upon for standing up for ourselves. So what are some challenges for parents who wish to raise their children to be more androgynous and at least to be open to more flexible gender roles?

0:23:59 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Well, there can be a lot of challenges. First of all, I would say that promoting flexibility and gender expectations can help with healthier identity development and ultimately build a more inclusive society, as more children are raised that way, and it allows children to explore their full potential without fear of judgment or limitation. So I would encourage parents to promote androgyny or at least lessen the impact of strict gender roles.

That being said, they may face criticism from others, especially if they were raised in a family that strongly believes in traditional gender roles or a religion that has strict gender roles. They may feel a lot of pressure and judgment from family and friends. Oftentimes you’ll be accused of you’re confusing your child. You know, don’t confuse them, just tell them what they can and can’t do. And, as I mentioned earlier, it can be hard to find positive role models of androgynous people or individuals in the media, although they’re certainly more prevalent today than when we were growing up. And one thing that you can really do is you don’t have to really say anything to your kids. You just be okay with whatever behaviors they do. I mean you know, of course, within reason right, not if they’re being destructive or whatever, but just be okay and model different behaviors, so this week dad makes dinner and mom mows the lawn.

And then next week mom makes dinner and dad mows the lawn, and switch back and forth. Like, laundry and cooking is not women’s job and mowing the lawn, you know. Changing the oil in the car is not only men’s job. However, that can be very challenging as, as someone sent me out, to go change the oil in the car is not only men’s job. However, that can be very challenging, as someone sent me out to go change the oil in the car, I would just be lost, you know. but I could use the laundry, I could cook dinner, you know. So we have those roles that we’ve adopted and adopted in our family, and so you know you really kind of have to make a concerted effort to do that. Like I can mow the lawn, you know. So like, yeah, maybe just do the things that you know um, whereas you know you don’t want um dad doing the laundry because he puts the red sock in all the white, you know or whatever you know you have, because he’s never done it before.

Um, and so you just have to kind of work with your family and see, but try to show your kids that it’s absolutely fine. You know, let your, if you’re a dad, let your daughter paint your fingernails. You know, just be like I’m cool, I got these cool fingernails on.

0:26:40 – Kimberly King

And I think sometimes, especially I think it’s around the age of four where it’s why, why, why, but not you know, not necessarily to say, yeah, I love, I, I can mow the lawn or I can change the oil. I just prefer not to you know and maybe just maybe the other way.

0:26:52 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yeah, and probably we’re paying somebody to change the oil now.

0:26:55 – Kimberly King

Right, exactly. Good point. Well, this has been really interesting and I do appreciate the time and you know the explanations. So thank you for joining us again, and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It is nu.edu. And again, thank you so much for your time.

0:27:15 – Doctor Pam MacDonald

Yes, thanks for having me again.

0:27:17 – Kimberly King

Great, you’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.