0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:09 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer an holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the Whole Human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners.

Today we are talking about understanding trauma in children and a super interesting and informative relevant interview today. According to an article in Science Direct, despite the devastating impact of traumatic events in students’ learning outcomes, research has shown that social supports playing a crucial role in buffering the adverse impacts of trauma on students’ learning activities. They define social support as the guidance and positive reinforcement extended by colleagues, teachers, supervisors and family members to individuals across a wide range of situations, at work, among others. This is such a timely interview, very important, and I hope you listen today, thank you.

On today’s episode we’re talking about understanding trauma in children and joining us is Sheila Ebbrecht and a dedicated school social worker, mental health facilitator, and a PhD candidate at National University specializing in social emotional learning. She currently serves as the direct mental health facilitator and school social worker for Westerville City Schools, where she leads mental health initiatives, including the Hope Squad peer-to-peer suicide prevention program, and trains educators in trauma-informed resilience-based practices as a certified trauma and resilience trainer and a licensed independent social worker supervisor. She’s committed to fostering safe and supportive learning environments. Sheila also serves as a consultant and a trainer, equipping school personnel with strategies to enhance student well-being and staff development.

And also with us is Doctor Vicki Abbinante, Dr. Abbinante serves as Sanford College of Education’s lead for the School Safety, Security and Emergency Management Specialization. As such, she is very concerned about the trauma our children face in this day and age and how it can sometimes lead to violence and despair in our schools. Dr. Abbinante’s career has included classroom teacher, special education teacher, and school administrative positions K-12. She’s also served as the K-12 school safety program consultant for the Will County Emergency Management Agency in Illinois. She recently served as vice chair of the Children and Disaster Caucus for the International Association of Emergency Managers.

Dr. Abbinante has earned several degrees from universities in her native Illinois and her Ph.D in educational policy and change at Walden University. Her dissertation and subsequent research have focused on options-based responses to active assailants in schools and training whole school communities to become resilient in the age of crisis events impacting our schools. Besides sharing her research and options-based response, Dr. Abbinante frequently speaks on resilient school communities, the importance of training all school community members and then designing comprehensive family reunification plans. Wow, so interesting, so relevant and timely. We welcome you both to the podcast. How are you?

0:03:48 – Vicki Abbinante

Thank you

0:03:49 – Sheila Ebbrecht

I’m good.

0:03:50 – Kimberly King

Good. Why don’t you fill our audience a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s episode?

0:03:58 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Okay. So I think for me, I’ve worked with students and children for gosh almost 30 years, used to do some outpatient work in a community mental health center and then went into the schools and you watch how kids struggle and have behaviors and I always, you know, I always wondered what was going. And now just as I learn more about trauma, and how it impacts our bodies and our brains when we’re trying to learn, it really helped me figure out, you know what, behavior is a clue. It’s trying to tell us something and I really feel very passionate about making sure educators learn that, so we’re not blaming kids for behaviors and we’re trying to understand and be compassionate about what they need and figuring out interventions to help them be successful.

0:04:48 – Kimberly King

I love that. And what about you, Doctor?

0:04:52 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

When I did my dissertation on options-based response to active shooters in public schools, I became very interested in what we can do to prevent some of that, and in becoming interested in that, things like how we can combat the trauma in our children in schools became something passionate for me. In schools became something passionate for me. There’s lots of things that go into school safety and I think that’s what my mission has really been is to promote school safety. But because of that, you need to promote a lot of other things like dealing with trauma.

0:05:43 – Kimberly King

Very interesting, really just amazing work you both are doing. Today we’re talking about understanding trauma in children, and so, Dr. Abbinante, I’m going to start with you. What are ACEs and how do they relate to trauma in children?

0:05:58 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

So ACEs are an acronym for Adverse Childhood Experiences, and what they are is they’re traumatic events that significantly impact a child’s development, or they can lead to long-term health problems, mental health issues, or even substance abuse.

0:06:23 – Kimberly King

Can you give us some examples of ACEs?

0:06:27 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

Sure, it’s a long list. Right now, in this day and age, it can be something like being part of a natural disaster a wildfire, a flood, a hurricane, a tornado, recently. It can be embroiled in a war, such as like Ukraine and Gaza. It can be physical, sexual, or emotional abuse; physical or emotional neglect as well; witnessing domestic violence; living with someone who has a substance abuse issue or mental health illness can also be a traumatic event. Bullying; having a parent who’s incarcerated; just experiencing divorce or separation of parents; having a medical issue that’s life-threatening if a child has one, that can be trauma-inducing. And even acts of terrorism, things they might see in person and definitely things they might see on TV. So those are just some examples of what ACEs can be.

0:07:48 – Kimberly King

So interesting. Wow, and that is quite a long list, but we all know somebody right that has probably had to deal with all of those. What are some common signs a student may have recently experienced an adverse childhood experience?

0:08:04 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

Some of the ways that it manifests is in emotional and behavioral changes. They can have an increased fear or anxiety. They can be very clingy. They might have mood changes from up and down. They might regress.

We all know that little kids when they get a brother or sister, they kind of regress. That’s not necessarily a childhood trauma, but it’s kind of the same thing. They can show aggression or acting out. They can disassociate, just kind of not be there with us. They might blame themselves. They have a lot of trust issues, low self-esteem, definitely difficulty concentrating and paying attention. These manifest in academic problems all the time and language development seems to be difficult for them. As they grow older into teenagers, you might see substance abuse or self-harm. Very common to see risk-taking behaviors as well. Sometimes they’re hypervigilant of what’s going on around them. You might also just notice physical symptoms and this is sometimes things that parents would be seeing more than an educator, but sleep disturbances or changes in their eating habits, physical complaints- I can’t go to school because you know this is hurting or that’s hurting, and even incontinence all of a sudden is, you know, could be something that, a way that it might manifest.

0:10:09 – Kimberly King

Like bedwetting or just yeah, these kinds of things. How prevalent are ACEs in school-age children today?

0:10:17 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

So the CDC did a study in 2023, and it was actually a study on adults, and the study showed that 64% of the adults had suffered at least one childhood trauma and there were 18% that had suffered four or more childhood traumas.

0:10:47 – Kimberly King

That’s a lot and for such young ages. You know, we always talk about how we don’t know what people are going through. You know, when you just see them on every day and how people can mask that. So this really teaches you know to have compassion, because we don’t know what’s on the other side. Has there been an increase in childhood ACEs recently?

0:11:10 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

So Science Direct, a magazine, did an article in 2020 that there was trend data that showed it hasn’t actually increased, but it has changed a great deal. Before the- earlier in the 20th century, childhood trauma might be losing a parent or a sibling, or a parent being very ill or being in poverty. Now they’re seeing more parental divorce, parental drug abuse, and parental incarceration. So it hasn’t necessarily changed- I mean it hasn’t necessarily increased, I think we are more aware of it, but it has changed on what the causes are.

0:12:14 – Kimberly King

And I would imagine perhaps COVID may have changed some things as well. I don’t know if those studies have been caught up yet, but you know just a whole different world we all lived in during that. How does-

0:12:27 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

It was traumatic for us. I’m sure it was traumatic for children.

0:12:30 – Kimberly King

Right? And then when you put everything that trauma on top of it, all you know just trying to figure out how to navigate through all of that. So, Sheila, next, how does trauma impact a student’s ability to learn and engage in the classroom?

0:12:47 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Absolutely. That trauma, We know that there’s lots of things that have created trauma in our kids at all ages. So I think what it means to be like a trauma educator and how they, how that we see that is that having that curious mindset to not looking at our students like what’s wrong with you? But instead looking at what’s happened, what are your experiences, what have you been through and sometimes we’re not going to always know, but really making sure we look at that curious mindset, like I said. Really focusing on that our students’ behavior is giving us a clue. Something’s going on. It’s not just that they’re trying to be bad or they’re not trying to annoy us as adults, that something’s going on with them and they’re trying to communicate.

And it’s not just our little, I mean I work in an elementary school, I’ve worked in all levels but it’s also our older kids. Sometimes they don’t have the language to articulate as we were just listening to, that that’s impacted when our kiddos go through trauma. As well as really recognizing that there’s that strong correlation between kids who have experienced trauma and academic achievement. You know, we see that. We see that those scores are impacted and, again, just making sure that we’re really focusing on their strengths, looking at them as a whole child, not just one, what they’ve experienced but how they are functioning in the world.

It’s also what I love about some of this work. You know, we can’t change what’s happened to our students or our kids, but we can definitely move forward and create new neural pathways for them. We know that there’s brain science to back up what we see in our kids and how it impacts their learning and engagement.

0:14:45 – Kimberly King

You know, and I love that too, that you know just, we all do have a past and a history, but it is again, you know, just redirecting, I guess, and I think it’s fascinating. And in this world of you know where everything is out there on social media and everybody shares locations, whatever is going on, it is different than when we were growing up, isn’t it? And just trying to keep up with your best friend or your neighbor across the street, there’s a lot of pressure out there. What does it mean to be a trauma-informed educator?

0:15:20 – Sheila Ebbrecht

I think I was focusing on some of that. It’s just really looking at our students and our kiddos in terms of, again, what they’ve experienced, being curious about that. I know my son and I like to watch the Ted Lasso you know that series, and there’s a great example of that in the series is when he’s like shooting those darts and he talks about, if someone were to ask me, they would know that I played darts with my dad every year until he, you know, until he died when he was 16.

So really wanting to understand our students and really wanting to get to know them and really having conversations with them instead of just making those assumptions, I think is really a lot of the work, as well as focusing on that resilience piece. Again, I know I was talking about that we can’t change what’s happened, but we can really focus on building that resilience and helping them learn, and helping them understand and teach those skills.

0:16:20 – Kimberly King

Which is nice because you know, again, at a different age and a different generation, I don’t know that everybody was so compassionate or we just didn’t maybe dig that much and really, you know, have conversations. Like, I think we do a better job of that today and, thanks to what you both are doing, you’re able to have those conversations and dig deep a little bit, and I think it’s very important. Dr. Abbinante, with the war in Ukraine and the destruction of Gaza, how are these school-aged children affected?

0:16:55 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

Well, there was a study done, I think it was, yeah, 2017. It was done by Save the Children and they actually looked at children who were in the war on Syria and 89% of those children had become more fearful and nervous, which just makes sense. But what they needed to remember was that they had to have knowledge of that and they had to understand that when they were teaching these children and some of those children ended up coming to the United States and being in those classrooms 71% of the children said that they increasingly suffered from bedwetting and involuntary urination, which we talked about, the incontinence before. And that’s a lot, that’s a lot of kids, And 80% became more aggressive. So I think that we need to remember that, the wars, you know, when we’re looking at trauma-informed classrooms, we have to remember that it’s a small world now. We have people and children from all over, and kids from Ukraine or kids from Gaza. They’re really dealing with it right now, so that’s very important.

0:18:40 – Kimberly King

To some of us that have never been there or don’t know what those war zones look like, you can see that when you just turn on the YouTube or see it on the news and it’s really alarming. So put yourself in those young brains and trying to understand what the heck is going on. That is, it’s just, it’s incredible, it’s very sad.

0:19:05 – Vicki Abbinante

And then you want them to learn calculus.

0:19:06 – Kimberly King

On top of everything else. Right? They’re good and bad, because you can redirect that too and keep them busy in the books with calculus. But yeah, trying to turn, you know, be blind to it, it’s impossible. What are some simple everyday practices teachers can implement to create a trauma-sensitive environment, Sheila?

0:19:27 – Sheila Ebbrecht

A couple things that our educators can do just to implement a trauma-sensitive environment is really just that awareness. That behavior is a clue. It’s trying to tell us something. It’s not trying to. I can’t restate that enough that it’s not. You know kids are aggressive or having a hard time because something’s going on and they want to communicate that as well as focusing on strengths.

I know a lot of the work that we’ve done with our trauma-informed, resilience-focused initiatives in school is some work from Dr. Bruce Perry, who is definitely very well-known in terms of his work, and there’s part of it that we talk about. It’s like an upside-down triangle where first, we start, we need to regulate our students and help them feel calm and feel safe before we even get to the part where we can reason with them or even have conversations or teach them calculus, as we were talking about that. So that regulate and then relate- those relationships, we know that those relationships are key for everybody. You know, I think about some of my students and the ones that are kind of like thriving and moving on. A lot of it’s because they have those relationships. You know ,you can go back and you can really pinpoint that and we know that our brains are wired for connection. We want to be with people, even our kiddos who like some alone time, and I’m all for alone time, but really we know that connections are really valuable and to foster that in a classroom is key.

We also know that making sure that we have those positive comments and praise. I think now the research is saying like seven to one, seven positive comments to that one negative. You know, often our brain wants to go to the negative so we have to kind of- how do we like counteract that? And that is to make sure we’re at least making seven really positive, and it’s even noticing. It’s not, it can be non-verbals, it could be different ways, but really making sure that we do that and foster that in the classroom.

As well as teaching kids co-regulation. When we as adults are calm, and we are able to like showcase that, kids instantly sometimes will follow that. I know in some of my classrooms where I work with a lot of kids who have some pretty severe behaviors, when I can walk in and be calm and model that, it’s amazing what happens, And part of it’s that relationship. So, and again, we talk also about having areas in our classroom where they can go and be by themselves and be able to calm down. We call those calm down corners in the education world, and that’s just not for elementary, that’s for all of our grades. It’s super important and valuable, And, again, really focusing on strengths and getting to know our students.

0:22:15 – Kimberly King

I was going to say I think adults should have calm down corners too.

0:22:19 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Well, we encourage our teachers to do that too, so it’s good to practice.

0:22:24 – Kimberly King

Yeah, you know, there was something that went around the internet a while ago, several years ago, and it was a soldier that was in combat. And I think part of what he kept in his personal items besides the pictures of his family, but was an exercise that he did in elementary school and you probably know what I’m talking about, but it was- they went around the classroom and on a loose piece of paper you had to write one nice thing about that person.

So when he was in elementary school that meant so much to him that he put that in his personal belongings and apparently somebody found that in the war and that would just really speak to what you’re saying about saying nice things and making sure that you know everybody’s going through something, but like really reassuring them that we can always find something nice to say about somebody. So can you share an example of a resilience focused intervention that has been successful in your experience?

0:23:29 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Absolutely, I know I have- I have a second grader who has had lots of struggles. I’ve known his family for tons of years. It feels like probably 13 different pockets of his family and then this particular student has his own kids and now he has a second grader, and to watch him be dysregulated and really struggle calming down. So we do a lot of co-regulation, we do a lot of breathing together and it is so cool to watch him.

He knows now, once we get started, we do that, we take several deep breaths and then we focus on his strengths, and we figure out kind of we problem solve together. And I think those interventions where you can do it with your adult and with your teacher have been really successful to me. I know often really, we have in our building, like some students who are gifted as greeters but they also the kids who are a little squirrely and running around and, you know, causing problems. So really focusing on that strength, giving them a classroom job, is another really important resilience intervention. It’s really looking at our students and finding what they do well and really letting them shine and letting them kind of rise up to that and feel good, because when we feel good and feel connected, we do better. I know that I do. I know I’m more motivated as an adult, even when I know one, someone’s noticing that I’m working really hard and I feel confident.

0:25:05 – Kimberly King

I love that. Another quick story and I love that it’s really kind of meeting people where their purpose is right and giving them helping really locate that purpose. My mom- I took care of her for about 10 years. She declined from Alzheimer’s and she was in a facility that was like adult daycare, and they realized that she loved hand-making cards and kind of like she went backward. You know she- she was probably 78 years old at the time, but you know, Alzheimer’s. But they created a card display case like you would see at Hallmark or something, and every time she got squirrely and wanted to wander they would say Jackie, come back here, you have inventory. You know, come and do your cards. And I think so to what you’re saying. You know, it takes all ages, all types. But I think when we respond with understanding what people’s purposes, we all have a purpose and I think when we respect that, I think that we have a win-win situation.

0:25:59 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

In a school that I was in, a couple of teacher friends did two things that it was remarkable to me what it did for the kids. One was yoga. They just absolutely loved it and looked forward to it every day and that was part of that regulation. And another thing it was crocheting. I had a teacher who taught some of her kids to crochet and they just, you know, these were kids who you know weren’t real outgoing and maybe had difficulties connecting with other students, but they could all sit around and learn to crochet with this teacher, and it formed that relationship that Sheila was talking about.

0:26:45 – Kimberly King

I love that. That’s great. And again, it’s an activity that’s shared, sometimes going fishing or doing you know, just things where you don’t have to say a lot but you’re there with you know and listening. I think that’s so great.

0:26:57 – Sheila Ebbrecht

I think those preventative approaches are really key. You know, we talk a lot about, you know we see like the end behavior, but if we can work really hard and planning and being preventative and really building those strengths, building those relationships, we will see it will pay dividends in the end in terms of success and engagement of our students.

0:27:16 – Kimberly King

I do. I totally agree with that. So how do you address behavioral challenges in a supportive rather than punitive way, Sheila?

0:27:25 – Sheila Ebbrecht

I think again, really teaching skills. You know, we assume our kids know and you know we think about COVID and we’ve lost some years and all ages of our kids. I even know with my own children. But really teaching them the skills, not making the assumption that they should know, because, think about it, even if they’ve been taught it and their brains are stressed or they’re really struggling, they’re not going to be able to retain it as much as we’d like.

I know I had a student one time- I think she was a third grader at the time- and was struggling, threw something across her classroom and got into some trouble, and the teacher wanted to take recess away and we talk a lot about that, kids need play. That’s part of our trauma-informed, resilience-focused approach, and so I worked with the teacher. She figured out a different way to kind of have her give back. She did some like posters on kindness, helped some kids, and it was like super powerful and it wasn’t punitive. We weren’t taking anything away, but we were building up that strength as well as holding her responsible and, I think, really enforcing those natural and logical consequences. I know sometimes we go into buildings and they’re like you just want to take away consequences. And that’s not it. We want to teach kids because, really, what is our end goal? Our end goal is for them to learn a skill and to transfer that and continue with that. So really working on that.

0:28:49 – Kimberly King

It’s interesting because probably I don’t know if you’ve talked to these students that later in life they recall what was the change, you know, and it’s probably just like what you’re talking about those punitive consequences, but not in a negative way, in a positive way. Again, meeting them kind of where they’re at, giving them a challenge, and I think that’s just. It seems like it’s really pushed the needle forward. I love that you’re concentrating on that. So, Dr. Abbinante, how can addressing behavioral challenges caused by ACEs make our schools safer?

0:29:46 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

Well a lot of things that Sheila was talking, and even you Kim, you can find those in programs like SEL, PBIS, restorative justice is a really good one and then actually trauma-informed classrooms. Those can all deter behavioral challenges that can cause unsafe conditions in our schools. A lot of school shooters have been bullied. If we can teach kids not to bully and teach kids how to handle it through those programs, then hopefully we can prevent some of those kind of violent actions. I know a recent study by the United States Secret Service, they determined that many of the school shooters they’ve suffered more- they’ve all suffered more than one adverse childhood experience. So I think that’s really important to keep in mind that we make our schools safer by having trauma-informed classrooms and using those kinds of programs.

0:30:46 – Kimberly King

It almost feels like you know there should be some sort of a survey or something when these students come in, although without you know trying to form a bias or anything, but just like looking for these points you know, as they enter into the schools, just to find out you know what boxes they’re checking. For everybody’s safety, Sheila, how can- Oh yeah, go ahead.

0:31:09 – Sheila Ebbrecht

No, what I love about a lot of these approaches, they’re universal, you know, like it’s not just about kids who have experienced trauma and like, but everyone can benefit. It’s not going to hurt anyone. So really, I think helping our educators to know like these skills are good for everybody. So participating in that and being a part of that is going to help everybody.

0:31:30 – Kimberly King

Yeah right, everybody. I love that. So how can school administrators support teachers in implementing trauma-informed practices like you’re doing?

0:31:39 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Yeah, absolutely. Implementing trauma-informed practices like you’re doing yeah, absolutely. And what I’ve noticed is when our administrators also are trained and are on board and supportive of those initiatives. I know in my district we also trained administrators, so all of the administrators went through that training so then they knew what was going on. I think, really giving teachers space and time to work on that.

The one thing we know is our teachers are bombarded with all kinds of initiatives and curriculum expectations, so we really work hard at trying to figure out- this is just something you can integrate. This doesn’t have to be this big event or this big undertaking. It’s probably some of the stuff you’re already doing, but making sure it’s part of that and really allowing if administrators would allow teachers that respect and that, you know, drive and that kind of incentive to keep going.

We also know with our trauma-informed, resilience-focused education that investing time in staff and supporting our adults is so valuable too and key, just like it is when we invest our time in our students. So I think administrators who recognize that and know how important that is will help everybody in the long run.

0:32:54 – Kimberly King

Yeah, 100%- Go ahead.

0:32:56 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

I also would like to add that I think it’s important that administrators give teachers the time to fine-tune some of these things, some of these programs and what have you, and don’t focus so much on curriculum, because the payoff is that once you get, say, behavior under control in your classroom, you’re going to learn at a much faster rate. But the focus sometimes for administrators is so much on, we’ve got to get through this curriculum. They don’t get- the teachers, don’t get the time to put into kids just, you know, kids or these programs like SEL, and I think that that time is very important.

0:33:55 – Kimberly King

I agree, I agree and I just think you know that educating everybody, you know it’s also a win-win there. Sheila, what resources or professional development opportunities do you recommend for educators looking to deepen their understanding of this?

0:34:11 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Yeah, absolutely so. Part of what my training is. It’s through, it’s called Star Commonwealth and you can Google that and find it, but they do a lot of trainings. It started way back, I think in 1913, when the director and owner back then opened his own school for boys and really that premise of there’s no such thing as a bad child and different and that kids have the right to not be hurt. So that’s a lot of Dr. Bruce Perry I had mentioned in terms of a lot of his work.

He’s written several books. There’s also another book it’s called What’s Happened to You? and it’s just conversations on trauma and resilience and healing, and that was from Dr. Perry and Oprah Winfrey. It’s a really easy read. Another book that I’ve used a lot is it’s called Fostering Resilient Learners and that was done by a social worker and then a principal, and it’s also another really like- schools could do a book study on that. It’s something that is easy and then again, The Body Keeps Score and it’s all about how trauma is an experience, how it impacts our body and how it impacts who we are as individuals.

0:35:28 – Kimberly King

So thank you for letting us know about what those resources are. I think that’s really important for people to kind of do their own deep dive there to understand. How can schools involve students, families and communities in resilience building efforts?

0:35:43 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Absolutely, I think, really helping our families and our community know the impact. We know, when educators and everyone is trained in these trauma-informed resilience focus, that we have improved test scores, improved school climate, a decrease in our absences. Some of our students don’t want to come to school. They’ve been through a lot and it’s super scary, and really understanding that and making sure parents are aware of that, I know, we’ve also done some parent trainings on that resilience piece and focusing on what they can do even at home, really partnering with them and also inviting them into our buildings. I mean, I know we spent a few years where, with COVID, we couldn’t, but inviting them in for events, helping them partner.

I know for me and most of the people that I work with, without our families it’s really difficult and we want them to feel comfortable too and we want them to kind of work alongside us. And think about it. I mean we talk about our kids and what they’ve experienced, but our families have experienced a lot of things too and how can we help kind of recognize that and kind of be a part of that? As well as just making sure we provide them information. You know, I saw somewhere where a school district had parents come in, and into the classroom, like once a month, and they did a lesson with them or they did an intervention and they got to see exactly what the teachers were doing and be a part of that. So I think, continuing to partner with our communities. I know even with our school board some of them came and did the training with us, so really having it to be a really important partnership.

0:37:29 – Kimberly King

And you know again, that education, where everybody’s talking about it, it doesn’t have to be anything anybody’s ashamed of- it’s, you know, it’s just becoming like that’s just part of our curriculum. It’s what we are talking about between the community, the students, the teachers, and it’s just, yeah, you’re hitting all of the spots. This is so interesting and, again, I love the work both of you are doing. Is there anything else around this topic that you haven’t said that you’d like to talk about?

0:37:55 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

I just wanted to add to the resilient communities. I think it’s really important that we give parents and students you know, as far as being a little bit older and members of the community a seat at the table when we’re developing some of these things, so that they understand the background behind it and they feel like they had a voice in putting it together. And so I think having that seat at the table is very important.

0:38:29 – Kimberly King

Right. Again, everybody a chance to be heard and different perspectives, no matter you know what side of the table you’re on. Wow.

0:38:37 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Absolutely. I love that. Yeah, I think for me, just I really appreciate the work, I appreciate just having a chance to kind of like even look at this. I think it’s such a more resilience positive way to get our end goal in terms of engagement and helping our students learn and being a part of that. I also- just recognizing that our students have a voice and that they are just incredibly valuable.

0:39:10 – Kimberly King

I love the passion and it comes through brilliantly with both of you. Again, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and for really, you know, educating us today on this topic. If you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It’s nu.edu and thank you both so very much for your time. Really appreciate that.

0:39:31 – Sheila Ebbrecht

Thank you

0:39:32 – Doctor Vicki Abbinante

Thank you.

0:39:37 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.